I have seen a lot of rolls fail exactly at the start, and I have often been able to help those people to roll by improving the start.
The problem is that people rush to the start, all too eager to start the sweeping motion as soon as possible. This will not work.
I agree. You can screw up a roll at any point from start to finish. A decent set up position is the foundation. If the set up is poor the foundation is rotten.
If you are easily falling out of the kayak you may need to modify the outfitting in some fashion. In order to effectively transmit your body motions to the kayak the snugger you are the better.
We have tens of kayaks at the club but surprisingly few are a good fit, I’m fairly tall but quite skinny. Most of the boats feel too large and wide. There’s a Tahe Greenland, should have taken it today… it’s nice and tight fitting.
This is a good point, at least for me. I had a kayak I couldn’t roll and continued practice was not helping me advance at all. I tried another kayak in my shabby fleet and could roll it. So I continued working on my roll with the one that worked for me. The practice now allowed me to improve my roll to the point where I could roll the first kayak. Clearly the problem was me and not the kayak, but the easy roller allowed me to improve more efficiently.
tough crowd here. Let me explain. No matter how you start a roll or what you do during the roll, The roll can be saved. The only part of the roll that can’t be saved is the end. If you fail the end the first time, but get it after trying again, then you got the roll because you are up. But if you don’t get the end…You don’t get the roll.
In a perfect world…If you move and position your BODY properly, then move and control the BOAT properly, and sweep and control the BLADE properly…then the roll is perfect. If you get 2 out of three correct,{and the other …sort of} you will probably roll…3 out of 3 , you get a perfect roll. Notice BODY, BOAT, BLADE. This is the key to perfection of strokes , rolling , bracing etc.
This is true for all rolls {except hand rolls …those you have to change the word blade to hand} Note that I have left out the straight jacket roll because there is only BODY and BOAT {so this statement shouldn’t read all the rolls
However…if you don’t finish the roll…you didn’t get the roll
Sorry for all those saying …WHAT didn’t mention fist roll or elbow roll or what about the brick…is it considered as a paddle?
Forget all that, it’s important to note that not all boats roll the same. Some are plank rollers and some are log rollers. {they have different rolling characteristics.}
Also , just like hull speed in forward stoke, there is a hull speed for rotating.
A loaded boat rolls slower than the same boat when empty and from boat to boat there is a rotational speed difference.
The movement driving the kayak around needs to be timed to the particular rotational speed of the kayak.
If a paddler is doing a standard Greenland rear deck roll. The paddler needs to reach the rear deck so that the kayak is already rolled to the correct spot in it’s rotation to be ready for the paddler to float onto the rear deck. If the paddler hurry’s to do the sweep and the kayak has not rotated far enough, The timing will not be smooth and the kayak will need further rotation before the paddler will be able to finish. {this is what people are referring to as not making the roll because it was messed up at the beginning or in the middle.}
However an experienced paddler/roller can save this, so the roll is actually not smooth or necessarily nice to watch But is not really ruined.
Unless you are in a competition…and then even splashes count.
Oh, so this is just an equivalent to “it is not the fall from the cliff, which kills you - it is the landing on the ground”.
Then this discussion is not for me.
Because actual perfect set-ups are more a product of pond rolling. My point was that the beginning of the roll is not where the fail was that actually was the reason that the roll was deemed failed. To be set up properly and properly initiating the roll from the beginning can many times, be crucial for a beginner and makes the roll sort of happen. However it may seem the reason that the roll failed, and it can, be corrected and then the person succeeds and completes the roll. The determination of whether or not a roll fails is that you don’t finish upright. {notice this is not competition where style counts}
Thus the actual fail is not being upright at the end . So as I said earlier … Rolls fail at the end not the start. A proper start does make it easier. Especially when first starting. {YMMV}
rolls like the vertical sculling roll are hard to pull off with a poor setup, but that is more of a variation of a green water or slash roll when used in real conditions anyway.
Sorry for all the confusion created by one small comment…
I suggest you learn reentry and roll with a paddle float as a stepping stone.
Dont even think about rolling when you start.
The first goal is to get into and out of the boat without any stress or exertion.
Then become comfortable with being upside down in the water sitting in the cockpit for a long period of time. Basically do this until you are entirely at ease and can get out of the boat (and in) without bumping your knees. Get rid of any anxiety that will interfere with learning.
You will have to find a pair of nose clips that work or improvise.
Now you can start rolling using the paddle float.
Once you have mastered that you can step up to the real thing.
If you learn on your own it will take longer but its doable.
I wrote before that I thought it was a good idea to learn the brace and the roll at the same time like Eric Jackson instructed in his video. If you’re using a GP you need to realize that you use it a bit differently from the euro. You don’t just push the blade down to bring yourself up. You need to push the blade down and FORWARD (and then a little backward if need be). Don’t use a death-grip. The blade will find its own correct angle if you hold on loosely… and don’t let it go. Can you tell I’m a BLADE-dependent person? Seriously… if you get the feel for biting that water with the GP blade it doesn’t much matter if you keep your head down or if your lower body is super-snappy. The BOAT and BODY folks might tell me how wrong I am but my BLADE rolling has gotten really comfortable and reliable.
I second having the paddle float on the end of the paddle. Then lay out on your back on the surface of the water. Just lay there and relax. You don’t pull yourself up on the boat. You sort of swing your body around with the sweep of the paddle at the surface of the water. Keep your chin pointed up at the sky the whole time to keep from raising your head too soon. Once you are on the back of the boat then you can sit up. Not before. But to start jus lay on your back and get the feel of swinging around. Wear a nose clip and put your head back under water while you lay there some too It will help you feel more comfortable when you start rolling. Take your time to set up right and think through what you are suppose to do. A big problem is rushing to come up out of the water when you first start.
One bad habit to avoid is pushing down on the paddle. The float will allow you to do this, but when you take it off the paddle you will push down from habit and most likely fail on rolling up. Just lay on the water and swing around. to get the feel . No pushing down or sitting up. when you are comfortable doing this try adding a hip snap/ knee drive to swing the boat up as you come around.
You can do this many times and not have to come out of the boat or tire yourself out wet exiting and getting back in. It’s all about teaching your body the correct motions.
Disagree. I have taught many people to roll whitewater kayaks. One of the most common problems I see is a set up position that is so poor that the roll cannot possibly succeed. It is very common to see a beginner try to start sweeping with the paddle blade 2 feet below the surface of the water. It is also not uncommon to see a beginner start out with an incorrect diving paddle blade angle so that even if the blade is near the surface, it quickly slices and dives as they sweep. With errors of this type, a successful roll is impossible for a beginner.
Don’t bother.
He is arguing that you are not killed because you fell from the cliff - you are killed because you hit the ground.
While this is technically correct, it is also completely irrelevant to the necessary choice
of actions. So discussing it is just a waste of time.
I went the opposite route, I picked a boat that fitted me well, I liked how it handled (surfs waves, snaps eddy turns) but I had difficulty rolling it. In fact , I made sure I had this boat when I paid for a 1/2 day of instruction. The end result is that my roll is much stronger when in my other boats that are easier to roll.
The boat I have had difficulty rolling is a wavesport diesel. The flat planing hull and edges/chine seem to force a good late core rotation- something I struggle with. There are times it has been frustrating but I knew the end result would result in a stronger overall roll. I realize this approach might not be for everyone. I already enjoy paddling and can experience success in a class II/III environment without a roll so a little frustration and a challenge are good for me. I do think a good fit is critical for rolling.
Following up on pblancs comments about setup, I don’t just think of the set up position in terms of just rolling successfully but also tightly tucking, getting the head and hands up high (near the surface) can help you stay protected (ww environment). In fact, I emphasize this when working with wet exits and hip snaps.
There a lot of kayakers that can roll from just about any position (without setting up) but personally I found focusing on all aspects beneficial (not at the same time). Practice, constantly tweaking, and getting assistance from others has helped me progress.
A number of folks have made the comment “don’t bring the head up early”. I think of that as a “symptom” of another problem. It could be a poor or late hip snap/knee jerk, a diving paddle angle, incomplete rotation, punching out with the trailing hand. That’s where coaching is useful. Telling someone where to adjust their focus is the “cure”.
I get now what you mean with wet exits. I practiced a bit more today. Now the Tahe Greenland was available so I took it (basically it seems summer is over here, meaning there was a lot less paddlers…)
Progress:
The reason I today didn’t capsize instantly was, I think, that I actively tried to keep my back straight and hold the kayak edge up with my knee.
Wet exiting and swimming around in neoprenes is fun, but not very productive considering the goal, if I brace fine for three seconds then somehow lose it, it takes a while to right the boat, climb back in it, pump it empty, etc… wish it was warm enough to do this at a beach so my wife could help standing. On a positive side she finds it funny to watch me capsize the boat again and again. She’s really good at rescues now.
For the next session I’ll go get a paddle float so I have something that floats and will support me so I can practice how my body is supposed to keep the kayak on its edge. Now if I fail sculling and keeping it upright I swim.
this will be a long way…
get a paddle floats on your paddle for feeling the balance brace. Don’t crank on it to get your self upright though, leg lift hip snap is what turns the boat up. Or just use the float. Practice lay back and find the stability / flotation point . It your head is sinking you are not arching your back enough to present a flat enough torso to the water, more bouyant pfd can help work around that too. your doing good, i spent a whole summer to learn a roll. Lot of wet exits. I recommend “The Kayak Roll” it is an old dvd. I learned a lot of rolls but this technique process is what I use without any thought in a real capsize. A greenland paddle does not be extended to use it and it’s basic essence is you watch( i can see it with my eyes closed now) the paddle tip through the entire sweep = the head wet, back arch, leg lift all happen naturally , once tuned this roll lifts you out of the roughest crap water without any 800 lb gorilla muscle effort and with little thought.
Peace J
Caveat - I have not been paddling at all. I might be full of $h!T about my own prowess at this point
At the first kayak camp where I got layback rolling instruction they started us on land. We’d sit in a Greenland style kayak and practice the body movement of laying back and sliding into and staying in a full balance brace and the instructor would guide us through the reverse, sliding back onto the boat stern deck while staying conscious of keeping our head as low as possible, below our rib cage ( one told me “chin up, head back, like you are trying to look behind you”. ).
Once in the water, which we did at first where the guide was chest deep and could support the boat if needed and observe and correct our form, we would practice relaxing and floating in an extended balance brace with the boat 90 degrees to the surface of the water until that felt really comfortable and stable. Then repeatedly practiced sliding from that balance position back up onto the stern deck, keeping head tilted back and down until the boat was fully righted. It wasn’t until that sequence felt natural that they would progress us to capsizing and then practicing the start of the roll (and we had already practiced the torso and arm movements of that part on dry land).
I will note that we were using wooden Greenland paddles, which allow you to balance brace by floating without sculling so this exact routine may not be an option for you. But the principles of methodical practice broken into components would still be applicable.
The advantage to this is you are mastering the last half of the roll first and therefore can later concentrate on the first half, which tends to be more urgent and effortful since you are upside down and underwater. But knowing that once your chest breaks the surface “you got this” takes a lot of stress off and stems the panic reflexes.
The rolls we were using did not require a hip snap but were mainly accomplished by smoothly righting the boat via the paddle’s buoyancy and resistance through the water and the inertia of repositioning the torso (strong abs are a big help). The emphasis was on smoothness in the transitions at a relaxed pace to avoid abrupt movements that would abort the recovery or pitch you over on the opposite side. Speed would come in time once the sequence became body memory. The pace also allowed us to practice repeatedly in hour-long sessions without exhaustion.
I didn’t interpret roym’s statement that way. I think the analogy is more like “whether you leap gracefully or tumble and twist awkwardly out of the airplane, the most important thing is to pull the ripcord on time.”