I’ve never paddled a Delta 15 but people I know what have them really like the kayak. I got to see one up close this past summer and was quite impressed with the fit and finish, and its made in Canada too!
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That’s very cool sing. I didn’t know, or didn’t remember, that you had been into skin on frame and stitch and glue kayaks. I always think of you as a waveski and sea kayak surfer. Yeah, the bongo ride seems just a kayak that has lost most all control. My normal regular kayak launch has been the ocean beach since 2006, and I realized pretty quickly that I wanted to steer my kayak in, not just be forced in parallel to a wave without any ability to steer. Before that, I spent some time kayaking out of Boston. I was doing some weekend trips for whitewater runs there, but more regularly launching sea kayaks from South Boston and Quincy and paddling through the Boston Harbor Islands, along with paddling the Neponset and Charles Rivers. There was one island that was still unrestricted and/or undeveloped/unpatrolled at the time, and I met this great family that camped out there regularly, and welcomed me into their island tribe for some weekends camping. That was always really enjoyable.
So I’ve been going out to play in the surf regularly since 2006. I have a waveski, but I haven’t used it as much as I thought I might. I found out it’s definitely a surfing craft, and maybe as good for paddling somewhere as a short surf board. It’s really designed to surf like the surf boards. Sea kayak surfing is an entirely different experience for me. I’m on the SE coast, the beaches are sand, and there’s lots of shoaling around the many inlets. So what I’m looking for is how the waves are forming across the shoals. Waves that crumble rather than dump. The soft, pillowy waves. Taking off and allowing the kayak to immediately broach, or even steering my kayak into a broach, rarely make sense to me, because you can’t really do clean top turns in a sea kayak. I can get away with messy top turns on top of a foam pile once in a while, but this isn’t a clean top turn in front of the pocket of a wave like you see among the well-skilled board and ski/surf kayak surfers. I familiarize myself with my kayak’s steering capabilities, and I try to ride in along the shoals to get the longest possible rides. So there’s cutting back and forth, there’s learning when I can steer more to move to one side or the other, there’s learning when the wave is steepening up, so that I have to keep mostly perpendicular to the wave, or I’ll broach and be out of control in front of a foam pile, or simply have the wave slip under me and have the rest of that beautiful wave and ride drift away without me. If the wave is going to be dumpy at one point along the ride, I’ll start riding very straight in front of it, let my kayak surge more in front of the wave when its about to dump, just enough to not bury the bow, don’t slow it down at this point. Instead let it glide, or even try to keep up speed with some really quick strokes, until I’m riding the foam pile, and then see how things form from there and keep on. If I find a spot where I can get rides without dumping waves, which are the lines in that I’m always seeking, even better. For sea kayak surfing, I have a few sea kayaks that I love, a Current Designs Sisu, a Point 65 Whisky, a Tiderace Xtreme. They have high volume bows, and are slightly rounded to nearly flat across the bottom, with no keel line. They are a blast for sea kayak surfing. They increase your margins for maintaining control. There’s more possibility of spinning them back downwave off of the top of a foam pile to continue the ride if you do momentarily lose control. I’ve surfed them alongside Delphins and Sterling kayaks and Romanys and whatever other surf-oriented sea kayak designs you find out there. I’ve had the opportunity to demo many of them. I’ve also done a lot of beach surfing in my sea kayaks, where I have learned to end rides by turning off to my left or right, and then peeling off over the top of the wave where best. If I’m doing significant bongo riding, I’m thinking about my mistake. Such as, if a foam pile is going to grab me and keep pushing me towards shore anyway, I won’t be able to peel off over the top, what could I have done to be mostly perpendicular to the wave and maintain my steering control instead?
But if I’m in open water in the ocean, lakes, or rivers, or even winding through tight little streams, I favor the designs with that faster, more efficient glide.
“Ultimately, I am more about “playing” in the ocean and less interested in “paddling” it.” I think I fall somewhere in the middle. Where your addiction is waveskiing, I love propelling a nice efficient sea kayak across the water. The active paddling is a big part of my addiction. I like to keep room for myself in a kayak to maintain involvement of my legs and lower torso in my strokes. So I don’t minimize cockpit volume to the point of being detrimental to those type of things. A surf skier would never suggest that the purpose of length is to provide more volume. Need for volume isn’t really the thing with length most of the time. But you can maximize length that suits you with an eye towards minimizing the extra volume that results. That’s what I would be looking for in a lake kayak for single day outings. But that’s me, and it is all personal preference.
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Again, I realize that I let my own preferences/biases kicked in the above post. Of course, there are folks, like you, who would enjoy the greater speed afforded by a longer waterline. My caveate would be that a longer waterline may not benefit the smaller and less strong paddler who end up needing more strength can be mustered to paddle a bigger boat. And, in windy, choppy conditions, a shorter waterline may be offset the control issues that come sometimes with longer boats with higher volume.
With respect to my evolution, I started paddling over 25 years ago, with the notion of being a “seakayaker” since I live very close to the ocean. Back then, there were very few short and/or “LV” performance oriented boats designed specifically for smaller paddlers, e.g Impex Mystic, Necky Eliza, Nigel Foster (now CD) Rumour. Also, there were assumptions about what dimensions a “real” sea kayak should have – minimum of 16’ and no wider than 22-23". (I alluded to this biase with discussion about my experience with the WS CapeLookout). As a result, a lot of smaller paddlers and women ended in way bigger kayaks than they need or could paddle more efficiently. To this day, I kick myself for not taking/buying a used Mariner Coaster that was nearby because I got caught up with the prevailing stereotype about what constitutes a “sea worthy” kayak. (Matt Broze used to come onto Paddling.net occaisonally back then. I had some interesting off-line discussions with him about “prevailing wisdom” of some PNet seakayakers.)
At any rate, I started surfing, storm (nor’easter) paddling and doing whitewater specifically to build my skills for “sea kayaking.” For skills development, I spent a brief summer hanging around Turner Wilson and his (in)famous “Pond Scum” on their weekly rolling clinics at Walden Pond, learning greenland rolling techniques. I was developing an affinity to tight fitting boats from that. Hence the foray into building SOFs and carving various GPs of various lengths and widths (most of these “experiments” had been given away to local paddlers). For me, the rolling and bracing techniques were just means to have fun safely in the churned up ocean. I remember asking Walden folks to go out and surf with me when the swells were rolling in. I think a couple of the Pond Scum joined me once but I began to feel these folks were more “rollaholics” who sought acquisition of the full array of Greenland techniques as an “end” rather the “means” to something else. Pond rolling was more fun for them than surfing. As much as I benefited from the Pond Scum practices, I was/am an endorphin/adrenaline junky and I drifted away from that crowd. (I also drifted away from local seakayaking club for different reasons.) I took up ww paddling to get my adrenaline and skills development fix when the surf were not rolling in. I spent two spring training weekends with NHAMC WW clinic and then assisted coaching with them for 3 spring weekends. I enjoy WW more than flatwater paddling. Anyway, I don’t consider myself a “sea kayaker” anymore, whatever that means.
With respect and benefit to the original poster, the past decade has seen an increasing prevalence of specifically designed “LV” class kayaks for the full array of paddling venues/preferences. Some of these kayaks are sub 16’ and some are much longer than that BUT all are still designed ground up for the smaller paddler. I dare say that some of the constant moaning and groaning of the smaller paddlers right here on Paddling.net/com over the years have helped bring attention to a large segment of paddlers that was previously overlooked. The bad thing right now is that COVID has put a damper on the supply chain. The inventory and the numbers of retailers that carried performance kayak retailers have severely diminished… 
Your Boston Harbor Island adventure was interesting. There are two islands that I can think of that fit what you are describing – unsupervised and not patroled. Most likely you saw Rainsford Island. It has a small and large drumlin connected by a split of land. There used to be a small hotel there but, more notoriously, a quarantined hospital/hospice of sorts. Only the foundation is barely visible. However, if you had the chance to walk the trail up the larger drumlin, at the top you would have seen young trees but also big divots here and there in the ground. These are old, unmarked gravesites where the wood coffins had rotted away and the ground indented into those spaces… There are quite few of those visible. The only other unmonitored island which hopefully no one should camp on is Gallops island. As beautiful as it looks, it used to be old industrial dumping site. The island is full of buried and exposed asbestos. Neither the state nor the city want to deal with the cost of cleaning and filling it up, like was done with Spectacle Island. The latter had been a garbage dump for the city of Boston but was covered up and capped with landfill from Boston’s Big Dig. Spectacle has a modern visitor center on it, several miles of trails with spectacular views of Boston, a swimming beach and free lessons and kayaks managed by summer state employees. It is great place to visit by ferry, or for paddlers by kayak launched from South Boston, Dorchester or Quincy.
Like your leads of on composite surfing longboats. Been keeping an eye out for myself to have something stiffer/lighter than the Delphin 150.
sing
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The F1 (14’x23" 29 lbs) is the optimal size kayak for most people
“Longer boats are less maneuverable, less stable, worse in the wind, and more work to paddle at normal speeds (due to the increased wetted surface)”
What do you think of the F1?
What would be the reasonable range of dimensions for a performance kayak i.e. length, width, cockpit depth?
And what do you think of a rudder vs. skeg for a performance kayak?
By “performance” I mean, rolling, bracing, edging etc. In other words maximum control over the kayak. As a body extension
Thanks!
What you posted above is ill informed drivel. And not true. I don’t know where you got it from but you need to find better sources.
that’s a quote from the attached link
It is still wrong. No reason to waste time on the rest of it given that clip.
Good thing I didn’t read that article before I bought my Arctic Hawk Kevlar……
None of that is true. Your research is bent.
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That is from Brian Shultz of Cape Falcon site. Brian used to be a regular PNetter. I believed he developed the F1, through various iterations, as the SOF version of Matt Broze’s Mariner Coaster.
Evidently, Cape Falcon is now making other various versions of tradition east and west Greenland qajaqs. I think if a SOF is not build right for the height and weigh distribution and venue selection of the owner/paddler, you could end up with weather cocking issues, since there is no deployable skeg to provide mechanical correction.
As I said above, we are in the “golden age” of kayaking for smaller and women paddlers, where are so many more LV kayaks with different lengths, rockers, skegs, etc. to minimize/control weather cocking issues. But, if you remember back to 20 years ago, most of us smaller paddlers were stuffing ourselves into oversized (multi day or expedition) kayaks. I’ve seen how this had presented problems in some of the group paddles, where some of the smaller paddlers couldn’t keep up and/or struggle with kayak control in more adverse wind/wave conditions. Better fitting boats of the right volume greatly help these days. Of course, better grouping of paddlers with similar skill and stamina levels for the venue selection helps. As important, better group leaders who could also intervene to reign in the impulses of overly aggressive paddlers who think every outing is a “race”, leaving less strong/skilled paddlers in their wake.
sing
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The FI shouldn’t be your next kayak. You are in the earlier stage of paddling development. Pick a kayak that challenges you for the next few years but that you have no problem reselling when you move to the next “dream kayak.”
sing
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So here is some historical discussion/context for Brian Shultz’s effort.
http://www.capefalconkayak.com/coaster.html
I was in the periphery of some of those discussions. I believed it happened here at PNet and carried over to Qajaq USA site (or vice versa). I know I had also been talking about the possibility of a surf oriented SOF for the DIY crowd but then reached general consensus with others that a SOF probably would not survive too long in a constant surf usage. I believe Nick Shrade was in some of those discussions (probably at the Qajaq USA site) because he soon developed the surf S&G, the Matunuck (a good surf break in RI), after that.
https://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/catalog/stitch-and-glue/solo-surfing/matunuck
sing
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I would only caution that finding a boat that is most comfortable to you and feels about right isn’t always what you will ultimately end up with. I paddled a ton of boats before I finally settled on my go to boat for serious paddling. I picked the boat for maybe the wrong reasons, but it proved to be a boat that I had to sort of grow into. I had to learn all new techniques and experience a lot of conditions that I would never have felt comfortable in most boats. Mostly I picked the boat because it looked right. The first time I paddled one, I almost crossed it off my list; Boy I’m glad I was stubborn and took the leap and had one built.
That 's my long way of saying keep an open mind and try as many boats as you are able to.
Do not be over influenced by first impressions… On the other hand some first impressions should not be ignored. Hey, if it were easy, there would only be one, or two builders.
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Sing has it. Yes, there are specific build criteria for SOF boats. But even those need to be tempered. I have a friend who built one, likely to the standards in that article. In use it has not been all that practical, it is a bit too close to fitting her perfectly in that it becomes a submarine in difficult conditions. Re-entry would be near impossible if a roll failed because the boat would take on too much water.
To the OPer, I also do not understand why you are wading into articles on SOF’s to start with. Per what Sing said, these tend to be niche boats with some real limitations for someone who still has to acquire a lot of sea kayaking skills. There are now lots of boats available for smaller paddlers, way way better than when I got my first sea kayak whose only accommodation was a lowered deck and a smaller cockpit. The boat was very kind but the volume was still wrong.
The pandemic did a job on supply chains, but boats exist which will serve a newer small paddler who wants to add a full range of new skills. It may just take a little time to get hands on one.
One more note on what the article said - yes a longer boat that is a huge tracker can be more challenging to turn than a shorter boat that also has a very “tracky” hull shape. The traditional SOF’s that I have seen built tended towards being trackers. If this person has replicated the Coaster in a SOF, probably less tracky.
But note my comment 4 days ago, which never really got answered.
"What about the hull shape of this boat do you like- rocker or lack of, secondary stability, amount of maneuverability…? "
More rocker (maneuverability) vs less rocker (stronger tracking) is a huge area of preference once people become more competent paddlers. I personally am less interested in speed than ease of turning a boat these days, paddling solo my range has shrunk a bit so I want to make sure that I will not have to argue with the boat if I am coming home tired. Others still want the speed.
But this is a crucial point in choosing a boat, and four days in I still do not see it answered.
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FALSE information 
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The advice I got in my beginner sea kayaking class (in Seattle) was not to buy without at least a test-sit. Of course, much easier done in Seattle than in Calgary!
That said, all three of your choices look good to me, given your goals 
The Greenland looks likely to be the fastest (fast is fun!), but it does have a storm cockpit which can make it awkward to get in and out.
The designed-to-roll backband style of seat does get complaints about back pain, so if you have no experience paddling in this kind of seat you may find that you have made a mistake buying this kind of kayak. Paddling in lakes, especially small lakes, means you do not really need to be able to roll your kayak; you should be able to fairly easily just swim it to shore, empty it out on shore, and get back in.
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“By “performance” I mean, rolling, bracing, edging etc. In other words maximum control over the kayak. As a body extension”
You can roll, brace, and edge with a surf kayak, a whitewater kayak, a sea kayak, a West Side Boat Shop racing kayak. There are a handful of folks who can do some pretty dynamic play moves in whitewater where rolling upside down is an intentional part of it, and there are rolling competitions in sea kayaks. But other than that type of thing, rolling and bracing is just something you use to resume performance. It’s not the most significant part of the measure of performance.
Everything is a compromise. If you’re in a whitewater playboat or a surf kayak, you have current and waves to move with, and the designs aren’t so much concerned with the ability to propel them with a paddle efficiently through the water. You can exercise edge control 360 degrees, and a snug fit allows you to better do that. When you get into propelling your kayak efficiently through the water as a higher level of importance, the racing world has taught us that it pays big dividends to have your body moving independently of the kayak in a way that allows you to use more powerful muscles to drive that boat forward through the water. In long boats, you can have big results from edging to the left and right for maneuvering, but you have very little control over dipping your bow or stern deeper in some controllable and results-oriented fashion, so there is no 360 degrees of meaningful edge control there. That snug fit everywhere doesn’t yield the results that it does in the short play boat. But you’ve discovered the dividends of the leg bone’s connected to the hip bone’s connected to the torso. So now maximum control and performance in your sea kayak is more enhanced by overall speed and/or bursts of speed than it is by a tight fit, and it’s more comfortable for long days on the water with a little looser fit on top of it. It simply isn’t true that an overly snug fit doesn’t inhibit a more powerful forward stroke. But many don’t utilize this type of forward stroke anyway. So you just have to choose.
I have several boats with both rudders and skegs. In my mind, they have nothing to do with whether you do or don’t have a “performance” hull. If it’s important for you to not buck the tide with the friends you paddle with, find out if they are dug in one way or the other, and go with that. If you enjoy being contrary in a fun way that will work with the group, do that. But if it already means something significant to you somehow, I don’t suggest buying the other.
I own the Zegul Arrow Play HV, and it’s not particularly high volume. 5’7" 150 lbs, I’d want you to try the MV as well to see what fits better. It is a fun kayak. Jesper Kromann-Andersen design with a good bit in common with the Current Designs Prana he later designed. The Zegul HV has a bit snugger cockpit than the Prana LV. The Arrow Play has a fuller bow and a flatter bottom than the Greenland. I also own a Boreal Design Ellesmere, which would be a fun one to compare as part of that group you have listed in the original post.
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https://www.taheoutdoors.eu/index.php/ze_en/play-boating.html
What is a “play boat”?
Why all the kayaks in the ‘play’ / performance category have a skeg and not a rudder?
I also noticed that they are shorter.
I think that’s my category;)
Sea kayak world ‘Play Boating’ leans toward having fun in wind & waves (and with the occasional rock). Maneuverability is higher on the design criteria list than tracking. For inland lakes a good day can be when the wake board boats are kicking up some good wakes to surf.
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Please return to the question you have yet to respond to about rocker and maneuverability. A play boat runs on the higher end of that scale. They are also slower.
Do you want a boat that is slower to get to those other characteristics?
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