So, I’m wondering what made Brian Schulz make that statement about the downsides of longer kayaks? Seems like that statement is widely considered to be flat-out wrong, but Brian is considered an authority on SOF kayaks and has a background with many other types of kayaks so I figure he must have some experience that went into that statement. Not trying to debate, just curious.
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I don’t think Brian is “wrong.” This is not binary situation, but rather a determination that is shaded by paddler attributes/skills combined with environmental context. I alluded to this in a couple of my posts above.
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Remember he was talking within a set of criteria. He certainly knows what he is talking about.
But l doubt that he would have taken the launch that the considerably less informed OPer did. That was to posit that any boat longer than a certain length could be unduly difficult to turn. No mention or apparent understanding from the OPer of different hull designs. In the right conditions it’d be tough for any but pretty seasoned paddlers to keep a boat like the Romany Surf going straight. But you would need a lot more experience than OPer has to understand that.
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I have a Delta 17 and my wife has the 15s. Beautiful fit and finish. Very responsive and fast. Probably a bit more fragile than the Cape Horn 17 and 15 they replaced but definitely lighter. We’ve been padding for 20 years, so are not "beginners, " but use our rudders all the time. We prefer a strong, even paddle and find the efficiency of balanced cadence more than makes up for the slight drag of steering with the rudder.
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Yes, Brian’s comments are contextual. For sure, he was/is much influenced by Broze brothers and their Mariner kayaks (all cult classics, especially the Coaster for rough water folks).
For those interested, going on to the Mariner Kayak site (which is still up, though kayaks are no longer produced), you can find the Broze brothers’ discussion of their design goals. More interesting for the respective models, you’ll find reviews done by the defunct Seakayaker Magazine. SeaKayaker had a very interesting format of using three advanced paddlers of difference sizes and gender to test and assess a kayak in various conditions. These review approach offered much more nuanced reviews rather than “absolute” statements of the “performance” quality of the kayak being reviewed. http://www.marinerkayaks.com/
However, nuance is often lost and/or missed by novice paddlers (and less technically geeky folks like me). It just a reflection of of skills, experience and knowledge (or lack of).
PS. The two former PNetters that paddle and love their Mariners were Sanjay with his Mariner Elan. That dude was in great shape and fast. I believe he entered and did well in his kayak class for the Blackburn. The other former PNetter is ScottB who owns a Mariner XL which he can capably surf in head high waves. I was out there on a waveski at Jenness Beach in NH and ran into ScottB just outside the break zone. He caught a good wave and took it all the way in with his Mariner. He also uses his Mariner as a multiday touring boat. I know this since current PNetter, Andy, does his annual camping pilgimages with ScottB up in the Umbagog Lake/Great North Woods of NH/ME. Oh yeah, if I am not mistaken, TsunamiChuck has picked up a Mariner since moving up to Alaska. Chuck is pretty agnostic and paddles a whole much of boats in varying conditions.
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Typically the Mariners had no watertight hatches, but you might occasionally see one with a rear watertight hatch - so one might use float bags or a sea sock when no inherent flotation was available. These were famous for having no rudder nor skeg, yet not weathercocking.
I had a Mariner Express which had been ‘updated’ by John Abercrombie in Victoria, with front, rear, and day (watertight) hatches - looked showroom new. It worked as advertised, but was heavier than I wanted and (for me) hard to roll. So it went to a new home. Another friend has an updated Elan, with fore and aft water tight hatches - also as updated by John. My feet are too big for the Elan; otherwise I would steal it.
Ilian,
I don’t know if you’ve looked in this direction yet, but Pygmy made really cool boat kits. I have no building skills, but was able to buy a Pygmy Arctic Tern 14’ last week. Hard chimed, can come with or without hatches or a rudder. Mine has neither, so it’s definitely a day boat or a play boat. Oh, she’s fun. I have to get used to her hard chimes and responsiveness after using rental kayaks for the past year. And at only 32 lbs, I can carry and load her with ease.
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Your instructor is mistaken on the facts. My ruddered boat loses less of it’s edged turn ability with the rudder deployed than my skegged boat does with the skeg deployed. And the skeg is susceptible to jamming with gravel at launch, which cost me a race once.
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If you check out any manufacturer website i.e. here you’ll see that touring boats typically come with a rudder and play boats always come with a skeg. There’s a reason for that.
According to Mike Looman from Current Designs “[There are two different types of boats: There’s a skeg boat and there’s a rudder boat:]”(How to choose the "best" Kayak. - YouTube)"
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A rudder boat will typically have a longer waterline. This allows a greater tracking within the boat. Think of an SUV. You want to cover long distances efficiently.
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A skeg boat typically has more rocker, which is the amount of lift the bow and stern have off the water. This allows it to be more maneuverable and more playful. A skeg boat is typically smaller in volume than a rudder boat, but they are great when you get into rough water, surf zone, you want something more playful. Think of a sports car, you want to edge the turn, you want something more lively underneath you.
As for me, I want a combination of the two. A playful touring boat. Since we only have lakes here, I need a touring boat. But I also want to be able to play with it. I want a maneuverable boat with lots of character. A good example for that could be the Zegul Arrow Play or the CD Prana. Both, by the way, were designed by Danish designer Jesper Kromann-Andersen
What happens if the same boat is available with a rudder or a skeg? Which category do you put it in? Nothing is a clear-cut as Zegul is saying it is.
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Wrong again and this is getting really tiresome. Play boats tend to be skegged for a bunch of reasons, and if you had more knowledge you would know that. Not the least of which is that they are generally newer designs.
ALL of my touring boats, across three manufacturers have/ did have skegs. They are fine for doing less aggressive paddles than circumnavigating continents.
Stop reading and try out some boats before the snow flies. You still don’t know what you are talking about.
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Three different types of boats you left out hulls with no skeg or rudder.
Generalizations from manufacturers (e.g. Zegul) are aimed at marketing and may not reflect reality. To separate kayaks into play boats and touring based on skegs vs. rudders is not correct historically nor currently.
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Ilan didn’t I think.
I wish it was that easy.
This is the closest outfitter I’ve found that let you try out it’s boats.
It’s 3500 km from here…
I am no expert, but it’s my understanding that a “play boat” is for playing in the surf. Often done in “rock gardens,” which is an area of the seashore that has lots of rocks sticking up out of the water that you have to try not to hit while you are surfing the waves. This is why you need maneuverability if that’s what you do.
I kayak on two lakes, neither of which ever produces the kind of big, fun-to-surf waves that play boats are meant for. So a maneuverable kayak was kind of pointless for me. I went for speed instead.
I’m pretty sure you can’t have both in the same kayak - fast is long and straight (little or no rocker); maneuverable is shorter and rockered.
I think if your lakes are like mine, you will soon find turning on a dime boring. If your lakes are truly small, of course, you may soon find doing multiple fast laps of the lake also boring.
About skegs and rudders: touring kayaks can have either one, ultimately which one you choose is a matter of personal preference. They both accomplish the same important function in high winds.
I chose a skeg because at the time I bought my kayak the rudder systems all worked by pushing one foot forward, so the foot pegs were not very solid to brace against. Rudder systems have improved since then, typically only the toe part controls the rudder so the heel part is solid for bracing.
What makes sense to me as the reasons a rudder would not be good on a play boat are (1) especially with a rockered kayak, a rudder way at the back of the boat will frequently be lifted out of the water entirely when you are on a wave crest, and (2) if your rudder hits bottom or a rock when you bottom out in a trough, the rudder would likely be destroyed, but a skeg that hits bottom would probably just be driven up into its housing (basically, the rock would raise it for you).
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Get a boat if you can’t try them out and take your best shot.
The problem with much of the stuff you post is that it is both wrong and dogmatic about how it gets there. If you get a boat and put in seat time you will eventually discover that your point of view is entirely too narrow. But posting articles to try and prove a point that is not correct is just a silly waste of time that could be spent learning how to paddle.
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Ditto what C said. Too much virtual paddling through manufacturers’ sea of hyperbole. Heck, one can learn a lot more by just sticking with and practicing different skills set in 15’x24" boat, with a rudder.
If you have access to demo boats – any demo boat – seat and paddle time to try performing what you think are your “next level” skills would be better than go back and forth in PNet about subjective opinions of what constitutes a “performance boat.” I hazard to say that “performance” is probably 60-75% determined by the skills/attributes of the individual paddler rather by than his/her boat. I bet you could put Eric Jackson in a freakin rec boat and he would probably get that down a class III run better than I can in my river runner. Likewise, Ken Whiting could probably take a sea kayak down a class III better than I can in my river runner.
Manufacturer’s hyperbole sells boats but doesn’t bestow actual skills required to paddle those boats well.
Just sayin’…
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Unfortunately, there are no demos in my area. But I own an Old Town Castine 140 which is 14’x24.75" 15" deck height. It feels like wearing 3 sizes larger pants than your actual size… so it’s hard to advance my skills in it.
This reminds of me of training my son in kickboxing when he was a young teen. I was trying to build his skills ground up, by starting with a basic jab. But, whenever I would train him on this, he would start asking questions of “what ifs” – what if I jab and the opponent kicks? What if I jab and he crosses? What if… What if… My response to him was “What the heck are you worrying about those other techniques for when you cannot even throw a basic jab right!?!” Eventually, I just could not train him and sent him to somebody else gym. I did that because another coach would not bother putting up with his incessant AND ineffective training.
Ultimately, my son became a number 1 and 2 rank amatuer and professional competitor in his weight class in the regional MMA venues. He has since retired and become a coach as well. As we shared stories about coaching, he laughed and said, “I must have drove you crazy with all my questions while training when I was younger. I know that I find it the most challenging with newer fighters when all they want to do in training is to talk, talk, talk, talk. It’s a waste of my and their time. after a bit, I just tell them to ‘shut the eff up and train.’”
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