like bike pedals
Like sizing bike pedals (seat height) there is a range where you can straighten your legs and also bnd them and still reach the pedals. That is how mine are set. I can paddle with bent knees and still stretch out my legs from time to time, which helps. Straightening the legs completely, though, stretches that sciatic nerve going down the leg - think about the mechanics.
Chef, I hope these tips work but if not I’d see a doctor before you get into trouble like I did.
Thing is, for me anyways,
straight legs spells bad back and weak forward stroke. Believe me, Brian I get it. I got it a long time ago.
As a beginner paddler I suffered from back aches until I figured out for myself why my back was hurting. It was because of my weak leg position. I havent had a sore back from paddling in a very long time because I figured out that lower body position is crucial for me and my comfort. I think others might benefit from what I learned but you are convinced otherwise. Obviously. I am cool wit dat.
For most paddlers that have a sit down job, the worst postion you could possibly kayak in is with your legs straight. The added pull form your rear legs muscles (those are the ones in the back) when your legs are straight would case the lower back to suffer. Having fully extended legs muscles renders them ineffective for helping torso rotation. Your legs muscles are attached to your back muscles. I learned the hard way about why I need to paddle with bent knees. And I am on my feet all day long. Desk workers with sit down jobs arent having those legs muscles fully extended like that very often and they will suffer bad backs because of it.
It don’t no rocket scientist to figure out that sitting with straight legs will injure most people’s backs. Now, you can suggest that paddling with straight legs is good (what the?) and can tell people that they can have their foot pegs set up to allow for straight legs (why) but bad technique will hurt a back faster than anything and why not tell people how to avoid back injuries instead of teaching the way to get hurt. Why not set the foot pegs to maximize technique over comfort and avoid hurting themselves. But your opinion is valued. Somewhere.
Your making me think I need to go read my kayaking basics book again.
The best thing I ever did for my own paddling was remove my back band and transfer my weight through my spine to my legs. That was the time my back stopped hurting.
You can lock in your lower body without unneccesary pressure you know. Sounds like you have two legs positions. A good one when you flex you legs to make contact and a crappy one when you dont. Please feel free to paddle any way you like. The fact that you have to change your body position to brace or just to firm up contact with footpegs seems telling. In a big way.
Now it’s your turn to tell me I dont get it again.
Get a canoe.
My back has been a wreck for years. A canoe is the best thing I did for it , besides getting a Tarpon(SOT).Someone else is enjoying both my SINKs.
You guys are within centemeters
of agreement. I pretty much agree with what both of you are saying - so it can’t be that different. Both say some flex and ablity to stretch out if needed is good.
Rotation is what fixed any back issues I had. Better foot bracing surface was icing on the cake.
Scott’s point about people with sit down jobs is a good one. To get the comfort of a straighter position (it is comforatble for some) requires some flexibility - particularly in the hamstrings. Most people don’t have it without working on it. I know I don’t.
Not as sure about losing the backband being good though. Mine supports my hips, not back, and supports leg pressure and rotation. Without it I’d be on the coaming.
Well put
That’s a good analogy. Paddling with straight legs does take some getting used to and it’s certainly not going to be comfortable for everyone. I know several people that simply can’t do it, no matter how hard they try. I’m pretty use to it, but it still takes me a while to get my hamstrings loosened up.
As I’ve said before, I’m not trying to convince anyone that they should paddle the way I do; I’m just offering it as a viable alternative method to what’s most commonly taught.
I understand what you’re saying…
…but you’re speaking in too many absolutes.
I don’t doubt at all that the way you paddle is the best way for you. It’s may well be the best way for many other people, too. However, it’s not the only way or the best way for everyone.
Sitting or paddling with straight legs is not automatically going to cause back problems. Granted, in a culture like ours where people sit in chairs, tight hamstrings are the rule. I’ve got tight hamstrings, too, but I was able to adapt to a straight legged paddling position gradually and now I prefer it. Although I do have occasional back problems, they’re not related to paddling. If anything, paddling helps to aleviate them.
Similarly, leg muscles are not required for torso rotation. Yes, you can get a few more degrees of torso rotation with your knees bent than with straight legs and a smaller increase if you remove your backband and allow your hips to rotate in the seat, racing style. That’s all well and good if you can utilize it. In a typical touring boat, I doubt that many people can as your ability to rotate is limited by the beam of the boat. If you’re wedged tightly into a boat, pushing hard against a backband, you limit your torso rotation. If you don’t have good torso flexibility (I don’t), you can’t get full rotation regardless of equipment or technique.
The point is that there is no single, absolute best technique for everyone. You’ve found the optimum technique for yourself and I’ve done the same. They happen to be quite different, both they’re both effective for our body types and type of boat, paddle and technique we prefer. There are myriad other possibilities in between that are going optimum for some people.
The difference in the debate on this issue is that I don’t try to convince anyone that your way of doing things is wrong or ineffective, as you are constantly trying to do to me. I simply present an alternative method, one that has proven effective for thousands of years. If you would simply accept that there’s more than one way to skin this cat, we’d spend a lot less time at each other’s throats and more time presenting useful information for others here.
That’s exactly what I’ve been saying
The trick is to find that spot. The amount that you bend your knees is a personal preference, but everyone has an ideal positions that combines comfort and solid control.
I agree
We’re really not that far apart.
Regarding paddling without a backband, it’s common among racers and people who paddle at an energetic pace most - if not all - of the time. If you’re pulling hard on the paddle, you’re pulling yourself away from the backband. You don’t need support, because you’re striking a balance between the forces of your stroke. A backband come much more into play for less energetic paddling. Perhaps Scott will back me up on this.
Interestingly, in a closely fit Greenland style boat, a back band isn’t a necessity, either. If you’re paddling hard, you won’t put any significant pressure on it. I don’t paddle that way very often, but have done so enough that I can vouch for the fact that it’s true.
It strikes me that this is just one more example of how entirely different position/boat/paddle/technique combinations accomplish the same end.
Now then, back up to it doesn’t matter
because it does. And then go back to you missed the point. Then go to you missed the point again.
I am not here to convince everyone that you are wrong. Your words are very clear for people to decifer. If you read my post again, the point was about back pain and how, maybe, a person could aviod it by using a good body position and paddling technique. It doesn’t matter if you paddle hard or not. Technique is technique. All I am saying is that good leg position can be extremely advantageous for any paddler that wants to avoid injury. And, that loose legs probably wont help someone experiencing back pain and it certainly wont help them improve their paddling posture to avoid back pain in the future. Your advice seems wrong to me in so many ways that I felt compelled to say something but thats nothing new is it?
“You missed the point but thats nothing new.”
Your charm is always a delight first thing in the morning. Good day sir. 
Yeesh
I got a sore back just reading this thread. My lower back…My waaayyy lower back. If stuff hurts when you paddle a long time, your technique needs help. Simple as dat.
Rotation
"Rotation is what fixed any back issues I had." And none of my friends believe me when I tell them that! Nice to hear that someone else feels the same way. We should have t-shirts made up and start a cult. “QCC owners do it with rotation”
Jim