Mad River Liberty

Modern classics?

– Last Updated: Sep-06-09 3:08 AM EST –

In Discussing the Wildfire, Charlie once wrote: "Dragonfly was a race boat; 28.5 wide w/ a round bottom. Fast and maneuverable, it intimidated most intermediate and many advanced paddlers". I mention that because that comment REALLY left me wanting a Dragonfly... which probably says more about what makes me tick than I could convey in such a more conventional paragraph - I really would love a craft that could almost demand that I improve my technique to become more worthy of being the paddler.

Reading extensively is no substitute for experience... but if I could get one here at a sensible (close to US) price... the Flashfire strikes me as a craft I would truly love: fast, nimble, and a joy to stick over to the gunwales. If the Swift Osprey would tick those same boxes then I could be tempted to head for Austria next summer and hope the pound buys more Euros by then!

Although hugely contrasting (Charlie noted that no one ends up with just one canoe)... the idea of coastal paddling in a rapidfire produced for kneeling has huge appeal... though the Bell Magic or Wenonah Advantage would be a damn sight easier to obtain, and stacks cheaper - my concern being that they are often talked of as out-and-out sit-and-switch craft... and I really, REALLY want to be on one knee when cruising within my comfort zone and on two when life gets more interesting :)

What worries me about the Libery is that it wouldn't inspire me in ANY way: I'm just concerned that the hull cross-section will not suit me. Sadly, I've yet to read much about POSITIVES to the shallow vee, minimal flare, low tumblehome profile for a paddler who might want to explore the canoe's limits.

I don't doubt that when fitted with a quality spraydeck (to counter the wind, to prevent the thing shipping to much water and allow me to stick the thing far enough over - beyond the gunwales - to REALLY lift the stem) I could tackle quite a lot... but the money might, in my case, be better put towards something more exacting -

As for the tiny tot: she's 5 soon... and will be joining me wherever appropriate (where I'm paddling well within my comfort zone, but mostly for short explorations of interesting places in a lightly loaded craft. I'm pretty sure we'd do OK with any of the above... though we'd perhaps pick slightly different adventures in a Rapidfire to those we'd tackle in a flashfire :D

This is getting dubious…
You’re claiming capabilities that don’t align with your knowledge base.



I don’t know. It just sounds like you’re asking questions (and implying skill) way beyond what is demonstrated on this thread.



It’s just not adding up.



To me this is the point where I say WHOAA slow up. You’re not ready for big lake paddling, less coastal canoeing.

Come on now
Does this thread have to take a nose dive? I don’t think so.


Sticking to the Lib ert…
And leaving aside my experience (extensive at sea, albeit in kayaks / sailing; reasonable in a C1 slalom canoe; soon to worked on intensively in an open canoe)… Clarifying the positives of the v profile on the liberty strikes me as worthwhile - not least because discussion of this hull shape is not easy to find elsewhere!



We can maybe leave fitting out a canoe for a paddling (modestly proportioned) adult and junior partner to another time.

fun discussion
You’ve clearly got the canoe bug. Great to hear your enthusiasm. Every boat under discussion is good so maybe you just need to take the plunge and get a fix.



I’ve had some shallow vees as well as the more modern shallow arches. The vees may feel a touch more tippy/sensitive. One positive is that they may feel like they track a bit better than a shallow arch…a vee has a natural feel of “carving” turns whereas a shallow arch may feel a bit more like a skid. I love Blackhawk canoes and I also like the Mad River Independence and those are all shallow vee.



Flashfire is hot but small…too small for napping and it would be crowded (and out of trim - nose heavy) if you add a small passenger.



Maybe there are more than one Dragonfly designs out there. The Curtis Dragonfly might have been a downriver racer (I don’t know) but for general flatwater use it’s a comfortable but relatively slow boat…slower than an SRT and slower than a Wildfire but more stable than either.

Dang, now I want to try a Liberty.
I had a Slipper and liked it, but the carbonlite 2000 (thermoplastic) construction wasn’t good for the local shallow/rocky rivers.



At 152 lbs, I’m about the right size for the Liberty.

not meant to induce nose dive
I’m just trying to be realistic about what I am reading. When a fellow says things like he’s going to be jumping into coastal canoeing and heeling past the gunwales using a spray skirt, but can’t decide on hulls as vastly different as Advantage and Liberty, to me there are questions raised.



Maybe it’s a UK vs. North America/availability of boats thing. I don’t know. And I’m not trying to insult, I just think maybe he should slow down a bit.

beg to differ

– Last Updated: Sep-06-09 8:05 PM EST –

Dragonfly has [had] a L/W ration of 7. STR is 6.7, WildFire 6, so DF seems to be the more efficient hull.

DF's overall width was 28.5 as is SRT's; both being ~ 26" wide at waterline, Wild is 30" overall, ~ 28 at wl, so Wild looses again.

STR is 15' long with layout at the stems, DF was 14.5 with ~plumb stems and Wild is just 14ft.

It's unlikely that all three hulls were in the same place at the same time in similar condition. A scratched DF might well seem slower than the others, but I doubt it is in similar hull condition.

We will have an opportunity for future test results as the DragonFly and WildFire molds have found a new home. Of course, that won't be an eves Steven comparison either, the new Wild will weigh 27 lbs and the DragonFly 29.

New home for the Dragonfly

– Last Updated: Sep-06-09 8:45 PM EST –

Joe Moore mentioned the new home for the wildfire moulds on the 'phone last week... but didn't go into detail: any timescale yet for orders being discussed?

The possibility of a dragonfly would certainly merit me putting additional effort into the hunt for a space on a shipping container :)

DF
Is it the former Curtis Dragonfly that you’re talking about? Maybe I’m forgetting boat names. I’ve paddled two…both in great shape…one back to back with a Vagabond and the Vagabond was much quicker/faster and the other was on loan to my close paddling buddy for years and we called it super comfortable (stable, roomy, dry) but not very fast (like many Curtis boats it seemed very efficient at low speed). I concluded that the SRT was a touch more efficient (I’m not a big SRT fan) and it seemed logical since I think the boats have similar usage intent (river boat - right?). I’m surprised the DF has a L/W ratio of 7…I thought it was 14 or 14.5’ and at least as wide as a Wildfire. Maybe I’ve never paddled a DF and I’m getting names mixed up.




1989 catalog
I am holding a 1990 vintage Curtis Canoe catalog.



Vag was 14’8" by 25.5" wide, DraGonFly 14’6" by 26. Pretty similar numbers, except DF’s rocker reduced wetted area and increased speed somewhat. The big difference was weight, Vag was 37 in glass, 30 in Kevlar. Dragonfly was 49 glass and 39 Kev, it always felt sluggish off the line because it was so heavy.