My first race

Actually it is much more complicated (or misleading :wink:

Hull speed in knots can be calculated with the formula S/L*LWL^(1/2) with the boats Length of the WaterLine (LWL) in feet and the Speed/Length ratio varying from 1.34 up to 1.51 for slender hull shapes up to 2.2 for Flatwater Sprint Kayaks and Canoes.
With a Speed/Length ratio of 2.2 a 17 feet Flatwater Sprint kayak has a hull speed of 16.7 km/h but can reach a speed of 20 km/h (11 knots) without planing!

(Speed/Length ratio can be calculated with the formula S/LWL^(1/2) with the speed of the boat in knots divided by the square root of the boats Length of the WaterLine (LWL) in feet. Also the effective waterline should be reckoned, otherwise you get a longer boat with an overstern rudder…)

Also I wish people here would post their speed in knots, as I always have to guess how to convert mph to km/h.

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For the sake of clarity, then what is the actual hull speed of a 12 ft boat. In knots and mph. I typically refer to this chart and thought it was reasonably accurate.

There is an easy convertion app, but it always seemed to jive with the rowing chart I found on line, so I stick with the chart. I agree with you that many posts have wrestled with the concept of hull shape and form, width, bow and stern configurstion, rudders, skegs . . . That’s probably where you formula excells. When the formula was devised, most boats had bluff bows and sterns because boats that had fine ends were prone to hogging, and full shapes were sliwer, but the holds held more cargo.


I appreciate the updated formulas, but they might run the risk of too much complexity for readers. I learned that lesson first hand. @Buffalo_Alice gave me some heart felt advice that made sense.

Hull speed is actually an archaic concept, as pointed out in the attached, which spells it out better than I could paraphrase it

As many readers are unconcerned about speed and have no desire to approach posted hull speeds, the calculations to determine the potential speed of the boat might trigger a yawn. Those formulas interesting me, and I apperiate the details, but it’s more fitting for boat designers (purpose of the original formula). I have one member in mind and intend to bring them to his attention. He plans to build kayaks. Ironically, he has little interest in speed, but he has mentioned that his boat feels like it’s climbing a hill, and no matter how hard he paddles, he can’t go faster. The reason (shrug and . . .) - Hull speed dude! No idea how fast he’s going. I might try your formula to see if it helps me figure out what speeds he’s reaching, but he doesn’t know and doesn’t care. I calculate about 6.2 mph, but that’s probably close enough.

I know when I hit that spot, it doesn’t matter what the formula tells me, because my GPS tells me, and I’ve learned that you’ll break your neck tryinh to pass passing it. Another person I know does his own testing, and what maatters to him is how fast his actual speed is over a set distance. He finds the hull speed limit for his boat.

I was reading your post again and saw the part about the 12 ft boat not typically being use to go far. I actually used a 125 Tsunsmi on for 21.65 mile trips across the Upper Chesapeake Bay, but admit that the actual length (not on the waterline) is 12’9". Hull speed isn’t important, because I figured out it was too slow by the amount of time it took for the trip. I then bought a 145 Tsunami then a 175 and they are both a lot faster.

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Your example formulas show some ways in which those special attributes of sleeker boats can be quantified using math, but I didn’t see this as making the general concept more complicated. I had already mentioned that very principle, just in words, so of course it doesn’t seem more complicated when it’s pointed out that this can be estimated with math. Even so, it is interesting for me to see such examples, and it is pretty amazing the degree to which some race-specific boats defy the “limits” that work so strongly to restrict the speeds of boats which have a more generalized design.

Be that as it may, let’s not lose sight of what was the actual topic here. Forgetting for a moment that the real topic was not to confuse knots with mph, I guess you could say that the secondary topic, one that I hadn’t even introduced or elaborated on, is that a very plain-Jane kayak that’s 12.5 feet long is not exactly a speed demon. I don’t see how talking about such a boat warrants special treatment in how its speed potential is estimated.

Now, again, this was never my chosen topic, but since it became your focus, I will point out that the standard hull-speed calculation is close enough for general-purpose boats and it’s really quite surprising how accurate it is. I have examples from a couple of my own boats which have convinced me this is true. I have two rowboats which are reasonably efficient as general-purpose boats go, but they are a long way from being designed mainly for speed. Because they are propelled by oars I can easily make them go faster than what I could ever hope to accomplish in a solo canoe of similar dimensions. In fact, one of those boats, which is 12 feet long, moves so easily within the lower three-quarters of it’s speed range that I can make it accelerate from a dead stop to slightly more than 5 mph in slightly less than one second and within the very first stroke of the oars (this is with a fixed seat and 7’ oars, so it’s really a very basic boat, not remotely similar to those used for sculling). But the theoretical hull speed for that boat, as provided by the most basic formula, is only 5.3 mph, and once the boat gets close to 5.0 mph or faster, it’s a poor use of energy. I can put forth a maximum of effort and not go faster than 5.5 mph, and 5.3 mph is a reasonable rating for the maximum practical speed. And by the way, I get the same reliable result with that formula for my other rowboat which is 15 feet long, but naturally with the top speed being faster (in that case the maximum speed indicated by the basic formula is 6.0 mph and that’s almost exactly the maximum speed I can go).

As to your wish that other people would report their speed in knots instead of miles per hour just so you don’t have to convert mph it to kph, I assume you are joking, though it’s often hard to determine such things in online posts. If people reported their paddling speed in knots, it wouldn’t eliminate the need for unit conversion on your part, and it would require them to use of a unit of distance measurement which is never used in those inland locations where most of them do their paddling. But hey, if we are going to ask ask people to use units of measurement which they have no personal use for and which serve no useful purpose in some other way, I vote that the we go whole hog and ask people to express paddling speed in furlongs per fortnight!

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Jyak, I had no intention of implying that an extremely accurate calculation of hull speed is justified. If you read my post again you will see that I actually mentioned one reason that such accuracy doesn’t matter, and I mentioned another aspect that makes this clear by implication. So, I agree with all those comments in the discussion that you attached to your reply. As another example, I was active on this site many years back, when it was called paddling.net, and in those days it was commonly discussed that boats with the potential for the highest speed were not necessarily the ones, and often were NOT the ones, which could most easily be paddled at the speeds more practical to the average paddler. So yes, I get it.

Be that as it may, my own tests some years ago with a couple of rowboats that are shaped approximately like canoes, showed that the most basic calculation method for hull speed is really quite accurate for boats having a general-purpose design and where shaping the hull to obtain unusually fast travel speed was never a goal. I have mentioned this elsewhere, but in using those rowboats for this test, I had far more ability for “pushing against the hull-speed limit” than what many average paddlers can hope to accomplish with their boats. This, of course, illustrates one of the aspects mentioned above, which is that most paddlers really don’t need to think about the “exact” value of hull speed in the first place since they won’t ever paddle with enough effort to reach that speed anyway, but since I was using rowboats and therefore I had all that extra propulsive power at my disposal, I found it interesting to put the basic formula to the test, and it was interesting to find out how accurate it really was.

My real point, which seems to have been missed by those replying, is that reporting one’s speed using the wrong units creates a huge error in a person’s understanding of the speeds resulting from various degrees of their own paddling effort, so being aware of what the units of measurement actually mean will make the difference between understanding their performance reasonably well and having absolutely no clue. To me, that seemed worth pointing out, and quibbling about what method actually estimates the practical maximum speed for widely differing styles of boats, or whether this was even worth thinking about, was not remotely on my mind. It’s worth noting that nobody thought about nit-picking the topic of hull speed the first time it was discussed in this thread, nor did they even care about the guy who flagrantly confused mph with knots. I feel like my primary point got totally hijacked.

As to the answer to your main question, that information was already in my post, except for the exact answer in knots (which already was included for the 12.5-foot length via my comments about the reason I was posting in the first place). But to apply the basic formula specifically to a boat with a 12-foot waterline length, here’s the answer, though I think you already know since you have now have the formulas. The basic hull-speed formula for knots says that the maximum speed for such a boat would be 4.6 knots, and the same formula when tweaked to give the answer in mph, says the maximum speed would be 5.3 mph. As a quick check, note that 5.3 / 4.6 = 1.15, which is the same as the ratio of mph/knots, or miles/nautical miles.

I looked at the chart that you clipped from that rowing site, but since you plucked out a portion of the chart and left out the titles which would identify what characters are being described, along with any indication as to the units of measurement, the numbers are useless to me. However, remember that boats used for competitive rowing are very sleek so they can push through the limiting factors that apply more strongly to ordinary boats of the same effective length. Therefore, it seems likely to me that this chart would use a different calculation method for determining maximum speed than the formula that works so well on very basic, ordinary boats. Because of that, I expect it’s likely you won’t find a consistent agreement between what’s in that chart and speeds provided by the basic hull-speed formula.

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“I was reading your post again and saw the part about the 12 ft boat not typically being use to go far.”

I didn’t say such a thing and I never would. The meaning of a sentence relies on more than a handful of words which happen to be next to each other and somewhere within the whole. In the sentence in question, the words “at such a speed” were part of what supplied my actual meaning, but context counts too. I was trying to point out that paddling at a speed that is very close to hull speed is extremely hard work that provides very little reward in terms of additional speed, and so it would not be typical for a person to even do that (this statement actually applies to general-purpose boats of any length, but the topic happened to be 12-footers).

By the way, I’ve done 20-mile trips in a 12-foot boat too. The12-foot boat I use is pretty efficient as long as I don’t try to get too close to the maximum speed, and being that the boat uses oars and it is naturally quite easy to make it go fast, it took me a while to learn that there is no point in wasting energy traveling at speed which provides poor return for my increased power output. You are outside of my league, though, paddling across Upper Chesapeake Bay! I’m more of a small-water adventurer, but since I’m not paddling kayaks, that makes sense I suppose.

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Those were round trip distances, not one-way, and condtions were fair. Agree that it’s hard work, which prompted me to get a better understanding of the advantage of a longer boat’s potential for greater speed. The relationship between hull length and speed had never entered my mind when I first started kayaking. There are better formulas, but finding that rowing chart made it easy to understand the relationship between hull length and reasonably attainable top speed.

It wasn’t until I read your reply that I understood that you were pointing out that TomL probably forgot to convert the formula from knots to mph. During early discussions with TomL, I thought he was a kayaker based on the speed and distances he covered. Then he told me paddled a canoe. That’s when I recognized the potential of a canoe in capable hands. Rowed boats are too complicated for me, so I’ll leave them to you.

I initially converted all of my speeds to knots, then stopped because I had to convert everything back to mph so people understood me. The nautical mile really only offers an advantage when plotting navigation, due the correlation between minutes and seconds of angle to lattitude/longitude. Far easier to me if I mark a strip of paper then compare that to the scale on the chart. While some people paddle until suitably tired then turn around.

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I’m mostly a canoer also, but in my world, rowed boats have their place and are amazingly capable at defying the effects of wind.

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Then you have talent.

Not really joking, because with miles per hour I often doubt which kind of miles people mean, as I am used to use nautical miles (1.852 km) for nautical things and otherwise kilometers especially when it comes to my own paddling speed :wink:

bummer, sadly I had too many things on my plate with work and kids to commit this year. I’ve been using my few free Saturdays to get up to OKC to work on my whitewater skills.

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