Bingo!
“If he was smart, he would farm out the production to a reputable manufacturer, collect royalties and spend more time paddling. That works for the other Nigel…”
How many complaints to you year about shoddy/sloppy workmanship on Legends, etc? I have friends who have used their Foster boats hard to the point all, and I mean all, the gel coat was worn off the stern from being dragged while loaded onto rough, rocky shores and that is not due to poor or thin gel coat. Still going strong.
I suspect it is the variability in build quality that gets people frothing so to speak as opposed to a general lack of quality. Some are quite nice, some are nice but with minor issues, and some are problem children. Real crap shoot so close inspection needed and what do you do when you wait months and months for a custom order and it comes in with issues? Hard place to be.
That works for the other Nigel…
Yup!
Nigel Foster has Seaward making three of his designs, Current Designs making another and soon Point 65 another.
Seaward has just about the absolute best reputation for quality control and Current Designs is very well respected.
Aled Williams has contracted the making of Tide Race boats.
For years now, many have wondered why Nigel Dennis doesn’t do the same. Certainly his designs are good enough that if combined with consistent build quality, sales would surge.
However, for whatever reasons, Nigel Dennis chooses to keep his absolute control of the manufacture of his designs. He has done so for 14-15 years and there is no reason to believe it will change.
Fortunately, the issues of NDK boats are well known. Fortunately, dealers/importers of NDK boats will replace or repair. Fortunately, there are a lot of good alternatives.
durability/tank like build
i gather it can be defined many different ways. i hope my boat holds up over the long haul as positively as some others have experienced. so far, if i compare it to some other boats, i would say the boat is not as tough. it is brittle, and the gel coat shows gouges quickly, which comes off down to the fiber. the bulkheads show white fractures where the resin has shattered where i have slid over rocks. mind you, i paddle around rocks nearly every outing and the rocks are nasty sharp all around our coast. any boat suffers here, but my Impex doesn’t show as much damage per contact as the Romany does. yet it is still early, maybe it’s just breaking in, and this stuff will settle.
as far as overall durability, there is one layup out there, not currently made, that blows all others out of the water. CD when in Victoria, had a layup they called ‘tufflam’ which was an extra heavy biaxial kevlar fabric, with bulkheads glassed on both sides, double glassed seams. vacuum bagged with vinylester resin. Michael Pardy (Handbook of Safety and Rescue) has one made at that time, and it is the stiffest, strongest sea kayak made. it was made to his order by his friends in the factory, all paddlers at the time, and it is unbelievably tough. he will paddle it anywhere, through the tight flushing rock slots, and it takes horrible impacts i am sure have broken his boat. it’s shocking, and the gel coat is stripped off over half the kayak, but the layup is untouched. the boat looks like it has been washed up in the surf for a couple of years, but it’s as rigid as ever. CD won’t make one like this anymore.
You just described my
current boat built by Stoddard Aerospace... Only Carbon, glass, soric, infused. Insanely tough.
I read all this NDK bashing and reflect on the many nautical miles and abuse my old Romany endured. Absolutely not a perfect boat, but I sure had some great life experiences in it.
one off?
was this boat made custom for you or is it a publicly available layup? the Necky website describes their AC layup but doesn’t mention any different layups offered.
just a bit overboard
You're welcome to your opinion but my NDK is not at all reflective of it. And when I got it I didn't even know what the eff "BCU" meant.
Those comments about amway and mary kay sound like something coming out of a child bitter with envy or insecurity.
NDK materials - another topic
This has also been discussed at length and it comes down to Nigel using the cheapest possible materials and way too much of them in order to make a boat that's very stiff, but also prone to localized damage. Instead of using woven cloth, they use mat. It makes for a stiffer, but weaker layup and it soaks up much more resin than cloth, so it ends up much heavier. Adding thick gelcoat doesn't add to the durability of the layup as it has little structural strength, it just means you can go longer between gelcoat repairs on high-wear area. That minor benefit comes with a huge weight penalty and the thick, stiff gelcoat spider cracks badly.
Using cloth instead of mat results in a lighter more resilient hull that distributes impact forces over a large area and is much less prone to localized failure. Smart companies use structural foam in their laminates where they need extra stiffness, as it increases stiffness without adding significant weight. Thinner gelcoat flexes with the laminate and is less prone to spider cracking.
Using better materials will result in a stronger, more resilient, more durable layup that's easily 20-25% lighter. That's what most kayak makers do. Again, NDK is an anomaly in the industry.
JeezLouise, can NDK do anything right?
design
Yeah, that’s about it
Great designs, but they have no idea how to build them correctly.
Bryan, the speed of which you go to
great lengths to attack Nigel Dennis suggests a severe case of penis envy. Of the constants known in the Pnet universe “BNystrom says Nigel is the anti-Christ” is a given. Tell us how you really feel about Nigel, don’t sugar coat it.
Of the 3 Nigel boats we have, one came with a leaking fitting. All others are just fine. They are heavy boats. They have a design/build philosophy that is acceptable to me. They have a large build paddler play boat that few if any other companies produce. Nigel is a great guy, a helluva fellow and a survivor in a extremely niche industry. People understand rafting, they see river kayakers once in a while, but sea paddling, let alone making a living at it, has to be as obscure as a flute playing bluesman.
Dogmaticus
thanks dog
I wonder if the criticism is partly inspired by knowing what good hulls NDKs have.
I especially like how one’s personal experience with an NDK boat turns into knowledge of the quality of all NDKs ever produced or gives one the gall to question someone’s definition of durability.
We all know NDKs are prone to QC issues. So, if you’re going to buy, inspect and paddle first, and take your lumps if you did. But I’ll continue to disagree with some of the blanket statements about materials and construction and offer up my much-bashed but to this point, non gelcoat-cracked, watertight explorer as proof. And yes, it’s durable according to whichever definition any of you care to use.
Blues flute player
Oh you mean like Red Groetzinger. 
Bottom line
Warts and all, it's only in the last year and a half that we've gone to symposiums in the northeast and not seen whole classes where the majority of the boats are NDK Explorers. From where I sit, that means it took other manufacturers a decade or so to come up with boats that competed with the Explorer in performance as an all-around boat for big water. The other boats that fill that niche like the Aquanaut, the Chatham 17, the Force boats and the P&H Cetus are all much newer designs.
Yup many of the Explorers show repairs - but it as much due to the paddler using them hard as from anything original in the manufacture. For whatever reason, paddling Brit boats aggressively, at least in the east, tends to mean playing in boat-bashing rocks. We must all be trying to find our Scottish roots or whatever.
Whatever the debate about NDK build and QC, and there is plenty to be had, the guy made a boat that a lot of other manufacturers spent some years chasing. That's their charm.
Blind Mello Jelly
Dogmaticus
I could care less, but
I have never seen a much bashed regular FG hull, regardless of manufacturer that did not have gelcoat cracked, chipped, whatever. Isn’t doing so its reason for existence? Frankly, it is just as irrational to say Brand A boats are indestructible tanks as to say all Brand A boats are junk. Maybe well bashed to some does not mean getting body slammed onto rocks or surged if not surfed onto rocky shores, but if it does, then the gelcoat is going to get damaged. Not scratched, but damaged. Lets get real folks.
here you go
It's chipped at the places where it has been bashed. Nowhere else. No spreading cracks, no spider cracking, No cracking at flex points/bulkheads, nowhere else. At other points of impact there is no crack nor is there any chipping. If you want to impugn my intelligence or question my honesty maybe save yourself the breath. (I think I read somewhere that you could care less) but you posted anyway, so you're welcome to come see it anytime.
If you re-read my post I was only commenting on my personal craft; I think that was rather obvious. I haven't seen anyone here make positive blanket statements regarding the brand and I certainly did not do so.
I suspect some of this is nothing more than posturing from people who have little more to do with their time than compare gelcoat cracks and old war stories (fish stories) instead of paddling...or people envious to the point that celia made.
Nystrom has experience
Brian has repaired, owned, worked on, etc... many boats. He speaks from experience.
I love my Romany and recommend Explorers to folks more often than any model boat. However, I would never assert that the build quality of an NDK boat can be reasonably relied on to be as consistent as a Valley or P&H boat.
Brian is not challenging the design quality of Nigel Dennis boats. He is noting the build quality based on his experience and knowledge.
We have 9 kayaks in our current fleet, all but two British built. So, I guess that makes us Brit boat folk. I think, as noted above, people are often passionate about the boats they love. Also, as noted above, people get frustrated when they have a beautifully designed boat that has manufacturing flaws.
Someone like Brian who knows boat construction, gets more frustrated than many because he understands the details of building/repairing a kayak.
I have been frustrated with the defects/flaws in two of my Brit boats. Brian's advice helped me solve the biggest issue with my Romany. Peter Orton is resolving the problem with my Nordkapp LV.
Knowing what is usual or acceptable in kayak manufacture is helpful. In addition to Brian, posters like Onno, Flatpick, Salty, Orton, etc.., help in deepening our understanding of the design and manufacture of these boats of which we are so passionate.
Learning how to address and remedy concerns is also extremely valuable.
Not personal, I just think
its absurd how these NDK threads go spinning out of control. I admit I don’t grasp why debating the merits of NDK boats apparently involves some fundamental truth of the universe which in turn creates essentially a religious war. Debates about other boats do not reach a similar level of religious fervor on both sides.
"Know Why The Brits Didn’t Invent TV?
“Because they couldn’t figure out how to make it leak oil!”
(The above was the response given to my father after taking his Jaguar in for service for the umteeth time.)