It’s the “Buy American” bias, among othe
If I remember correctly, medicineman revealed a clue a few months back: he scolded those of us who bought/are buying non-U.S. kayaks. It was buried in one of Bowler1’s threads about the Explorer.
If all foreign-made kayaks were poorly made AND all U.S.-made kayaks were flaw-free as well as well-designed, I might agree, at least partly.
But that is definitely not the case. In my household, I got a well-made Tempest 165 (roto), no problems. Two years later, my husband bought a 170 (glass) with “issues” that have yet to be resolved (we have been promised they will be either repaired or the entire boat replaced, pending examination by a WS rep). We both love the Tempests and are not giving up on this problem child. But get real–sh*t happens. Maybe it happens more frequently with NDK. Maybe not. Maybe it’s a case of high expectations (based on performance/design) being disappointed due to “wandering” quality levels.
Having ordered a LV Explorer myself, I can only hope that I get a good one, or that any problems will be easy to resolve. If it were not for the fact that I couldn’t find any other model that fit my needs as well, I wouldn’t have ordered it. This model IS a niche unit, and since the bell curve of American citizens’ body sizes is moving in the other direction, it will probably continue to be a niche unit.
"a similar level of religious fervor"
Remember how intense the QCC cult and heated threads regarding those boats used to be on this board?
Is that a good fix?
If the coaming on my S&G boat popped off–something I dreaded after using umpteen zillion clamps to hold it down while installing it on the deck–I’d glass it over instead of just epoxying it.
truth in bashing
As an owner of 2 Valley kayaks I didn't get on the USA versus Brit purchase until the US dollar nose dived again....my angst there should be toward the forces driving down the dollar. I salivate when I think about adding another Valley boat to the flock, be it an Anas or a Nordk LV.
When I read of jbv's coming separation I cringed thinking no way! That's a structural failure that can kill....yes I said kill...is that too Amway for you?
For the poster who had never heard of the BCU before purchasing an NDK I offer praise for making an independent purchasing decision....but I wonder if having visited p.net prior and discovering the littany of problems associated with these kayaks, would you have made the same purchase.
For those whose skin was flexed a bit by the Amway remark, I suggest hanging with BrazilBrazil a bit-your skin will toughen!
and as I walk away from this thread shaking my head I'm wispering in my mind 'my God his coming came off.......
if anyone’s keeping score
I agree with greyak
dealer service
the dealer is a personal friend, as is his repair expert. i have the same level of repair knowledge as them, so i might as well do it myself. i don’t really mind and i’m confident in the job i do. of course i’d rather not have to do it in the first place and it does take a lot of time…
‘my God his coming came off…
That truly is scary.
Dispensing with any discussion of the manufactuers’ testing and inspection responsibilities, maybe some steps in a process of the potential paddler examining and stressing a boat before accepting it or paddling it could be suggested by those with experience.
As a starting point, I’m thinking of Frank Goodman’s description of Chris Duff’s examination of the Nordkapp he ordered for his paddle around Ireland in his introduction to On Celtic Tides.
It is none of my business, however,
offering an opinion, I’d avoid phrases in the range of:
“Piss poor businessman”
“Craps on customers”
The list is quite long.
Perhaps the reason ND is not here is the venom is quite persistent. I have little insight, but one may speculate.
Dogmaticus
That comment meant alot to me when
I read it. Wise words. Chris is a sponsored ND guy, as well.
Dogmaticus
that’s Neckys layup
carbon,glass, soric core material. I think they should have the entire bottom of the Ch17 with the core material.
The interpretation of that spelling
leaves alot to the imagination.
‘my God his coming came off…’
This is the internet afterall.
Dogmaticus
No, it comes from…
…having a background as a Quality Assurance Engineer and having an understanding of exactly how easy it is to do things right and make a quality product. It also comes from a concern that padders’ safety is at stake with some of the defects found in NDK boats.
If you find their practices acceptable, fine, give them your money and encourage them to keep up the poor work. Personally, I would never pay such a high price for such shoddy workmanship in any kind of product.
As I’ve said before, NDK designs are outstanding and Nigel deserves kudos for that. If you say he’s a great guy, I’m sure that’s the case. However, that doesn’t change the fact that he still doesn’t know how to build a quality product, or if he knows, he’s not willing to make the effort.
I’d say you’ve hit on it
Well said.
because it distorts his point
It carries too much implied subjectivity. When you hear the phrases that dogmatycus quoted, one starts to not hear the message. It's like sensationalism in news. You have to ask yourself if the audience is the audience, or if you're talking just to hear yourself.
I don't think anyone has questioned bnystrom's experience here. I agree with dogmatycus that his delivery dilutes the message.
a coaming separation is inexcusable
…and no one said anything to the contrary.
I’ve also heard of some nut who paddled around New Zealand in an NDK. I think they may have gotten his boat right; if I recall it didn’t sink and he didn’t use terms like “piss poor” (which really doesn’t tell us anything) to describe the workmanship. But I’m sure Chris Duff is somehow contracted or beholden in some way to not say anything disparaging about NDK.
I’m the one who made an independent decision on buying an NDK boat. It was made after hearing a few things about NDK QC, even from the dealer, and so I was able to demo and inspect the boat to my content. In the end the decision was made by seat time, inspection, intended purpose, and yes, price.
Explorer is a fine boat.
I had some problems with mine.
Bubbles in the lay up burst and caused a serious leak in my day hatch.
NDK service was awful but the dealer was good, at least understanding.
I fixed the problem and have paddled a great sea kayak for 7 years now. That thing has been battered all over the place. Holed three times one broken swift paddle and a couple of broken Harmony paddles, my Gore-Tex dry suit is wearing out at the thighs.
NDK is fine but has some quality issues. It's also a tad heavy.
As for North American boats being "better" I have seen some problems with hatches on Old Town, WS Tempest, Impex, Dagger and that is before we get to Neoprene hatch covers wearing out. Seat issues have been seen with Current Designs where the seat just fell apart like a Christmas ornament. A skeg on a good friends KEVLAR Gulf Stream had a square inch of glass not installed in the skeg. We put a garden hose in there and could not believe what we saw.
CD, WS, and Dagger addressed these problems.
Everyone has issues, the more boats the more issues.
NDK had what I consider the best hull design for universal use. My next boat may be a Valley Nordcapp LV but that is for extra speed as I age.
Alex
Nor did he whine
when it broke making a hard landing fully loaded in tough conditions. Picture of resulting carnage in the book as I recall. He picked up the pieces, had it fixed, and continued on trusting the boat. You go in harm's way in any kayak, you will break it sooner or later. I also rather imagine he went over the boat in great detail before first setting out upon the sea in it which is prudent in all cases.
Quality and NDK
Thank you BNstrom, that is the answer. I am also a QA engineer and I have to agree with you, Nigel may be a nice guy, he has done a lot for the sport ,great designs but bad implementation and quality. I vote with my pocketbook and do not own and NDK boats, I would like to if the quality is ever up to snuff, because the ones that are put together well are wonderful to paddle, but until the quality improves me garage is full of valley boats. I count on my boats to (at some level) help keep me alive in a bad situation, I do not wish to be the one that has my deck fittings come off when I am trying to do a self rescue or have my coming pull away during rough seas. I will leave that bit of excitement for others thank you.
is tact and the ability to speak
and communicate sans agression to the point of being obnoxious a desired trait in QA? i can see where it must make meetings difficult when you come crashing across a desk, frothing like an old bull in musth about some bobbin with a rough edge…can’t imagine that effective.
sometimes it feels like that old SNL skit with dan akroyd and jane curtin point/counter point where he just started pretty much every comic debate with “jane, you ignorant slut” i mean, haven’t we been here before?
QC is sketchy but the design excellent…so they get bought, inspected and fixed if needed…repeat.
as soon as i find something i like better for what i do, i’ll paddle it.
happy NY and tell L i say hi.
We did too…
and totally agree.