NDK ELITE LAYUP???

Gelcoat is not just for UV protection
It’s also a sacrificial abrasion layer. I agree that it’s not structural and using too much of it just makes a boat heavier, but it’s more than purely cosmetic. It protects the structural layup in multiple ways.



Boat builders like Nick Schade have argued that from a strength perspective one would be better off to just add more glass and resin, rather than gelcoat, but from a practical standpoint, gelcoat is easier to repair when it becomes scratched and chipped.

What about Nordkapp LV

well…
I was hoping to avoid that question!



The LV is a pretty kick-ass boat as you could tell from my posts about it. It is super fast, maneuverable, fun to paddle, etc.



However…(yep there is a however)…first I just can’t quite get comfortable in it. I really don’t like the fit of the boat. I thought I could get used to it, but it just does not fit like the Explorer does.



Next…I just don’t find that it handles in ocean conditions like the Explorer…or at least for me.



I got out to the coast a couple of weeks ago and found that boat did not surf well for me (yeah I know sea kayaks don’t surf like surf kayaks, but it did not surf like the Explorer). The LV had a tendency to broach rather quickly in the surf unlike the Explorer. I also found that on a really rough day in the ocean (unlike a really rough day on the bay) it just was somewhat squirrelly.



So…I again have to say that the Explorer is just a hard boat to beat. It really is!



In moderate conditions I really like the LV, but in rough conditions…the Explorer gets the nod from me. Maybe it has to do with my weight (now 200 pounds) but that is how it is for me.



Guess I am going to be an Explorer paddler (let’s put an end to this mad search!)



Matt


My Impex experience
I haven’t paddled around many rocks so I can’t speak to the scratch vs. gouge argument first hand, but what I can say is that my Impex boat is tough. It does have a few spider cracks here and there in the gel coat, but I’ve seen that in a lot of boats and I chalk it up to an inherent trait of gelcoat. The reason I say it’s tough is that after I had owned it for about a week I dropped it about 5 feet from the top of the car. The stern hit the asphalt parking lot hard and there was just a scratch and not even a severe one at that.

Force 4 similar to Aquanaut

– Last Updated: Jan-18-08 9:20 AM EST –

Matt,

The Force 4 is the closest in feel to an Aquanaut of any boat I've paddled. I like the Aquanaut better but suspect that the things you decided you didn't like about the 'naut might be similar enough in a Force 4 for it not to be to your liking.

I thought the Nordkapp LV would be the boat for you. However, feeling comfortable with/in the boat is essential. If the Explorer is the boat in which you feel best, then it is the right boat for you.

-Jim

still curious
Based on your previous posts…you’ve decided to go with another Explorer (I think you said you had other’s previously)…did you decide to for go the replacement on your new Nordkapp LV you mentioned from before? Your last reply said you really liked the Nord LV but decided it’s not the boat for you…



So are you keeping the DEMO boat that you bought and took through a rock garden and wanted Valley to replace with a new boat?



Are you still getting the new LV or have you decided to spend the extra $$ on an Explorer?



Just wondering.

Agree with Nick
and you on the scratch issue, which I think I made clear. I disagree that Gel-coat is easier to patch / repair than normal laminate. I personally don’t want any Gel-Coat on a boat, or if I have it, very thin everywhere except the keel. And I’d rather an epoxy strip / coating there! Most folk don’t realize how heavy Gel-Coat is! Up to 8 lbs. in a touring kayak…

A couple comments.

– Last Updated: Jan-18-08 12:23 AM EST –

This is, as are many of Bowler1's threads, interesting. And like razor (above), I must have missed a chapter in the middle, because last I heard, B1 really loathed the Explorer as a playless skunk, and was getting some remediation for his egg shelled Valley. He was prepping to tel us about it. Now, no speak of Valley, and buying another NDK? Sort of like Doug Flutie 1984 Boston College-Miami Game and taking a pee during the Hail Mary moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-qkpsygNYo&feature=related

B1, please clarify.

I have ordered a custom Valley A'naut, and debated ong and hard with the comments of many (eg wilsoj) about which to get: Anaut or Nord LV. Something struck me as the Nord LV being a fun playboat, but being "work" on choppy seas. I have boats for fun (eg Prijon Barracuda) but wanted an all around boat. At 17 1 inch, and 21.5 width, the ANaut LV (not the traditional Anaut) seemed right for me. We shall see.

I ordered the Valley Pro-Lite layup, which is c/K hull (not deck) and vacuum bagged. I also ordered a sectional and keel strip. The comments about the flexy hull and the carb Kev has me mildly concerned. I paddle the stumpwaters of central IL and hate repairs. I have heard the argument of flex is good when hitting stumps and objects, and I have heard that stiff and strong are better. I am trying to save some weight as the sectional itself adds about 10 lbs. Will the c?k be stiff and proper in a sectional? Will the bulkheads (doubled because of the sectional by definition) be strong if c/K? Will the boat be less fragile actually than a full length one piece because the sections are each only 5 foot 6 inches? Your comments are welcome. And I will post reviews here and on another couple blogs when I get it and paddle it for a few months.

Thanks



2 x agree with Salty and Nick on
gelcoat vs. one more ply even … or not.



YES ! Gelcoat alone can add up to 8 pounds … and the thicker it is, the more its gonna’ crack.



Doesn’t have to though.



Easier to do for smaller production guys because it easier to babysit stuff … but if you spray only enough gelcoat to change the mold color + a tiny bit more and then do first ply just in time, the bond will be such that you can almost fold the part in half before the gelcoat lets go.

Salty, Your killin’ yourself man : )
But thanks for keeping the right info on top of the pile.

Valley ProLite

– Last Updated: Jan-18-08 9:19 AM EST –

CD1, I think you'll find the Valley layup plenty stiff. Valley layups tend to be very good. There have been some issues with a very few boats the last couple of years, but Valley has been quick to address.

My era ProLite is Carbon/Kevlar and Diolene in the hull. It has held up VERY well.

I find the Nordlow a lively, quick, sexy boat. However, the Aquanaut is maybe a better all round boat. The 'naut LV is likely a bit livelier than the standard Aquanaut, which would make it more fun.

Chapter missing

– Last Updated: Jan-18-08 5:54 AM EST –

Yes...there is a chapter missing, as I have not yet written it to publish here based largely upon the massive criticism I received over my last chapter about my flexy Valley.

The LV was defective. Had this confirmed by a Valley dealer in person yesterday. Valley has agreed to replace it for which I applaud them. I fully plan to make a post applauding their customer service and will do so once I get the replacement.

On the Explorer....I never said I loathed it. I did and always have said that it is a bit boring...and it is. But it is, as I have always said, one heck of a solid all-around boat.

As we all know, boats are all about compromises. I think that the Explorer's compromises are speed and playfullness. Its strengths are incredible versatility and rough water performance...and for me personally the fit is perfect and I feel that it is an optimal boat for my weight.

I think the LV is an incredible boat. It really is. It meets most all of my criteria for an all-around boat, but utlimately is not for me. The fit is just not right, and I really did not like how it performed for me in the ocean in the surf zone.

I had the boat out in very high winds and wind waves here on the bay and it was a blast, but these conditions are not the same as the surf zone. I had it in a pretty damn good tide race and it was a blast...but this is not quite the same either.

My decision to stick with the LV as my solo boat was made before I really got a chance to get the boat out in the surf which is where I spend most of my time when I get out to the coast. I just assumed that the boat would excell there as it had everwhere else for me.

I found out that I much preferred the performance of the Explorer in the surf. And that was a deal breaker for me. Performance in the surf zone is one of my most important decision criteria.

Unfortunately for me I found this out two weeks after I sold my Explorer! I had found someone who wanted to buy it and did not want to turn away a buyer (sucks to have a boat for sale for months that you can't sell...been there). I knew I was taking a bit of a risk in selling the Explorer without having had the chance to try the LV out in the surf. Yet again, I assumed it would excell there so I sold the Explorer.

You can laugh. I did a little. Felt pretty stupid. I have bought and sold a lot of boats in the last few years. I really had reservations about selling that Explorer. Should have waited, but oh well (also had reservations about selling the Avocet, and Aquanaut...all were great boats).

But I have it all worked out now and maybe for the better. I always like to look on the bright side of things.

I am going to order a new Explorer. Will get it in a more visible color this time. Since it will be an 08 model it may be a bit lighter than my 03, hopefully will be of good quality as I hear their QC has improved, and will have the new Kari-tek cable skeg which is supposed to be a bit better.

I have a friend who has been wanting an LV. I am going to give it to him for the same price I bought it for so he will have a brand new boat for the used price I got it for. I would not have felt right selling him or anyone else the defective one. So things work out for him pretty well too (he's getting the LV for less than I am paying for my Explorer).

And lastly...Valley will make out on this too believe it or not. Once this is all said and done I am going to make a post here applauding them for their customer service and for standing behind their product. I am sure it will be read by many and will make up for any question that may have been raised here previously.

Other consumers and Valley may also benefit if in fact the dealer did knowingly sell a defective boat as a demo...or sell a boat that had already been previously replaced under warranty. I think that Valley will put an end to that practice if that is what truly has happened here (I can't prove that but it has been my suspiscion).

And lastly....you guys get a good laugh out of the whole thing.

The downfall...I don't have a boat to paddle for a couple of weeks, but my wife will appreciate that. And this whole thing has cost me a lot of money (would have saved a lot if I just kept the Explorer in the first place) but I have learned a good deal here, and have renewed faith and confidence in my boat choice of the Explorer. Those are intangibles that you can't put a price tag on.
Matt

Flexible likea strung bow?
I think of my SOF boat as flexible/resilient as a taut bow and not flexible as in wimpy/soft. I’m not sure why it is and experience limited, but I agree there is a subtle softness that makes paddling one unique and immensely enjoyable. Of course the direct connection with the water makes a huge difference too. I found it transformational and has really improved my paddling overall in any boat.

Not sure it’s done yet

– Last Updated: Jan-18-08 8:40 AM EST –

After all, above you express interest in the Force 4...
OK - kidding.

Normal lay up
Nick Donovan, an instructor and guide in Clarenville Newfoundland had a Kevlar. It is not great. Service was terrible with that boat too.

Nigel Dennis will tell you up front to go with the normal lay up if you can.

I have an Explorer. Love the beast and have smashed it into a bunch of stuff holing it three times. It can be fixed!

It is a great design and a good boat but here are lay up problems and gel coat issues that would be exacerbated by a much lighter lay up. Kevlar is harder to fix as well!

If you have no illusions about quality and you need a great boat for carrying stuff (all be it with small but VERY water tight hatches) you need maneuverability, you need deck strength for rescues and simply carrying it on the top of a car, you need a reasonably fast boat (Not to be compared to say (Nordcapp). The explorer is dandy.

I would stick with the regular lay up like mine and put the Kevlar on the fore and aft keel.

The gel coat will be a problem in a Kevlar NDK.

Great boat after you get past the Harley bits.

Alex

I’m
not convinced that it’s “done” either.



I’ve paddled the LV Nord…he’ll be back



Best Wishes

Roy

Yeah, it isn’t over…
Matt, you’ll have your last boat when I have my last pint! I’ve told you before, and will here again. Have a small fleet of kayaks on a trailer! It will cost less than a small power boat, you’ll sleep better, may not need therapy, etc. This way you’ve got more bases covered…I mean how can you really be happy with a mini-van…“teasing” It’s a great choice.


"Let’s put an end to this mad search"
I don’t think we’ve seen the end of it yet :wink:



“I would like to try an Impex Force 4 sometime though…seems like a very promising boat.”



Folks, stay tuned for the next episode in this pnet special series!


Exactly
It still adds some weight, but it’s functional too, albeit not structural.

Interesting point…
The trailer full of boats. Not a bad idea! Never thought about the fact that it is cheaper than a motor boat…almost makes it sound like a good idea.



On the other hand though, I can only afford one right now and do believe there is something to be said about having only one boat and becoming intimately familiar with it in all conditions.



Something else I have learned though and that I will re-emphasize here is that you can’t really truly get to know a boat and its qualities (and whether it is right for you) until you have paddled it for an extended period of time in various conditions. I jumped too early on the LV. I should have known not to make my “final decision” so soon.



Oh well…

Matt