Massivegman
My advice as someone who gets a paycheck to paddle sea kayaks is, take evrything you read here with a SMALL grain of salt. People mean well, but most are incredibly bias. You have to spend a decent amount of time in each of these boats in varying seas. If you do, the clear choice will emerge, and that will be the craft that’s best for you. Over the years, as your skills increase your preferences may change. I have paddled all three, and know which I’d choose for me, but that is useless info for you.
I liked falcon’s post, although displacement craft don’t carve per sey, but I’m going techno there…I also have not seen a rudder on a Tempest, and am not sure why a woman, (probably small in stature) is in a T-170???, other than some well meaning, but mis-informed guy put her there. Seek skills first, and listen to your body. Then choose a craft that makes you smile.
"Seek skills first, listen to your body"
Sage advice from Salty.
I am among those too often guilty of voicing my preferences to others regarding boats.
All three boats you mention are good capable boats. Paddle each and see. As your skills develop your preferences are likely to evolve. Advanced skills work is possible using any of the three.
By the way, where are you located?
heh, heh, heh.
good thread, lots of very interesting posts and responses.
and interestingly i find them all agreeable. Falcon, that was a very curious description of balances that’s completely new to me. i’m not sure i’ve got it exactly, but it is yet another way to think of the interface between man and boat.
just for kicks here… i paddled the Explorer and Legend for a good while in Jan in a wide variety of conditions. it’s hard not to love both, such cool boats. the Explorer may be the easiest boat around to roll which is nice, and the Legend maneuvers with such as delight as to be grinnng constantly, but then so does the Explorer.
in other words, if you are stuck on one of these 3 boats, you are in for a tough choice and a lot of fun and satisfaction whatever the outcome.
good luck
Photography Needs
(Thought I had done this but don’t see the reply now now…)
We know someone who is a serious photographer and is looking to buy an Explorer, so this may not be an issue. But it is worth noting that, while the hatches are generally bone dry in Explorers, the 10 inch rounds may require some thought or additonal breakdown if handling particularly bulky equipment. Obviously I like the boat since I have one, but I am also not looking for real fancy photos.
The other thing to consider may be how hard it is to get into the day hatch, since doing a lot of photos may involve more times in and out of it while on the water. I have never had a problem getting into my Explorer’s day hatch, but I have been unable to open the day hatch on my Vela in cold water because the fit is so tight and there isn’t as much of a lip to grab. The placement is fine on both of them for me, if you are particularly stiff to the right or the left placement may matter more. You should probably check that out on each of thes boats as best you can.
just a thought
but many ‘serious’ photographers who shoot alot from their boats really prefer…rudders.
It makes it waaayyyy EZ to control the boat whilst moving along trying for the ‘perfect’ shot. I know when I shoot outta a skeg boat, if the boat isn’t right on track I can ezily loose the shot and end up one-handed paddling to try and re-position.
A lightweight tandem with a dedicated motor/steersman in the stern and a relaxed photographer in the bow is the way we get some very sweet shots out in ‘conditions’. This allows lots of flexibility when shooting.
steve
Legend could be a great choice
If it is made by Seaward in BC they build very high quality kayaks. We have a Legend they built and it is top notch. But we don’t know if they still build all of Nigel’s boats. We love our Hurricane Tracer at about half the cost but admit they are not the carving machine the Legend is. If cost is not paramount get a Legend from Seaward. We thought the fit and finish was better than the Brit boats and we are pretty darn picky! If cost is a big deal try and paddle the Tracer. My husband is your height and shoe size and about 185 lbs and loves the Tracer fit best of all. I am small and prefer my Tampico but used the Legend on some Great Lake trips and it’s oh so solid feeling in waves.
FWIW
Between the smaller coaming and the rounded bottom, I found it very difficult to do a cowboy reentry in a Legend. Yeah, N.F. can paddle it standing up, but that just goes to show that you can’t really judge a boat by other people’s abilities. Just 'cus Steve paddles his T in conditions that would make me fill my dry-suit socks, doesn’t tell you it would be the best boat for you. So some other considerations - none show-stoppers:
Would the rounded hull bottom on the Legend be acceptable for your fishing?
Would the smaller hatches and generally heavier weight on the Explorer suit your camping style and car-topping needs?
Would the Tempest hatches be something you can deal with?
Yes, the handling is the most important thing, but given 3 good boats, which has the details you want?
I just a demo’d the Explore and a Shadow
and found that the Explorer was a very well behaved boat that handled very rough water exceedingly well. What I didn’t like was the fit. My abs were hurting as well as my hamstrings.
I then demo’d the Nigel Foster Shadow (a little wider than the Legend, but essentially the same hull) in the same conditions on the same day.
The difference was immediately apparent. The Shadow handled the rough stuff just as well, but the pain in my abs and hamstrings disappeared.
I ordered a Shadow then and there and it was in the US and at my dealer within 2 weeks - it helped that I picked a boat that was already in stock in BC. You chan check their web site for boat status.
The boat’s quality is absolutely perfect, I’ve had the boat out now 4 times in winds up to 40 knots (that was not fun), The boat still handles great.
After today’s paddle, I feel like I have bonded with it.
Love my Shadow!!!
PS Email me for my phone number if you want to talk in person about the Explorer vs the Foster boats.
Good Info!
There is good stuff here, thanks everybody for their input. And dont worry, years of forum reading for my activities, I have a salt shaker sitting next to me to go with my post reading.
Since Im fairly new to SIK, I know that I probably wont find the perfect kayak, but with my choices Ill at least get it in the ball park and hold my satisfaction for some time until I become far more proficient.
I live in Ventura County of southern california and travel to Orange County frequently.
Ill probably pass on the foster legend. With my inexperience Ill probably get more enjoyment from something with more initial stability. I know loaded up I wont notice as much, but I will be spending a good deal of time on the water while unloaded. However, if I do manage to find a good bargain on one, I could adjust.
Yes a rudder does make photography better and sometimes fishing, but I have found more personal reasons at this time to prefer a skeg.
I just fit into the tempest 170, glove like, so the 165 is a bit too small, especially for entry and exits. The 180 falls on the too large side. I know that seating is up to my own customization and i shouldnt concern myself way too much with the stock set up, but I have spent 8 hour days in a kayak, and the tempest phase 3 seat is extremely appealing to me. I could sit all day in it. I am concerned with the hatches as I have been in adverse conditions and nasty surf, Id probably devise my own ‘assurance’ system for them.
I have one more place to try to obtain an NDK. I hate the stock seat, good thing its not glassed in. I enjoy the handling about as much as the tempest from my experience in wind and current. Smaller hatches are more of a pain on long trips, but I manage. The extra weight is a bother, but im used to plastic boats anyways, now those can get heavy.
So its probably going to become a toss up over what boat I can get a better deal on between the explorer and tempest, then whatever else I manage to come across. But at least now after my own research, trial, availability, and paddling.net, Ill be more confident in my decision.
In the mean time Ill try to find the Riot Aura and the Foster Shadow to demo since I know some dealers carry the brands (sadly few boats).
Thanks again everybody and more suggestions are always welcome.
Greg
Nigel Foster
Sweet man, good lookin partner in Kristin, throws a great party! Fun to share waves with, excellent human being, designs great kayaks…
and…
he plays a mean guitar. His voice ain’t bad either.
steve
None of the whiskey sippin’,
…guitar pickin’, Kristin huggin’ Nigel Foster comes across in his DVDs – although he is a superb instructor which is admittedly why I bought the flicks.
"but essentially the same hull"
I’ve found the Explorer and Legend hulls to be VERY different in ways that affect their handling/personality - rocker, chines, etc…
Both are great boats, but not the same hulls.
stability
I photographed professionally for about 15 years and I am curious about methodology here. All three boats, as evinced by the comments are excellent. I personally have a tempest 170. Very stable and great handling in waves. But I ddi not buy the boat because of it’s inherent qualities that lend themselves to photography. I also have a sof and have found that for stability, I just jam the GP under the deck lines and I have an instant outrigger. I have since gone to doing that on the tempest when I am shooting and have found it to be very confidence inspiring.
Just a thought.
Paul
Explorer seat
A lot of people I know do have had to mess with the Explorer seat. If that’s where you end up going due to whatever factors, you’d probably need to figure on doing either of two things. One would be to improve the existing seat with some minor padding on the base and some foam glued to the bottom to provide more support for your legs beyond the end of the seat.
The other would be to have it cut out and install a foam seat from someplace like Redfish, which would allow you to really customize the fit.
I don’t have a problem with the LV seat, but then I have always like really hard seats on my road bike too. So I know I am not quite the norm.
I agree from what I recall that the Legend seat was quite comfy. As to the handling - it’s a full hard chine boat and so will feel more active on the water. But that doesn’t mean it is particularly more likely to go over, it still has great secondary stability. It does mean that it might be kicking around a little more noticeably in smaller stuff while you are trying to line up a shot.
Explorer seat
Many have pulled the stock seats from Explorers and Romanys. I’ve found my Romany Elite seat (graphite) fine with just 1/8-1/4 of foam glued on it.
NDK backbands are pretty universally acknowledged to be poor. I personally do not know anyone who left the stock back band in their NDK boat.
But these are minor points and easy to address. The hull matters most.
Maybe I wasn’t clear.
The comment about being "essentially the same hull" was between the Shadow which I own and the Legend.
The Foster boats have hard chines and a flat bottom or "British Arch as Nigel Foster calls it under the cockpit. The Explorer has a soft chine and a more rounded bottom.
Definitely not the same hull.
used boats
I bet you could come up with a good used boat in that area for 1/2 the price of a new one. What plastic boat do you have right now?
Sorry about that
Sorry about that. Yes, of course the Legend and Shadow are basically the same design with very slightly different dimensions. Nigel also told me that he extended the chine further in the Legend than the Shadow. As I recall he thought it would aid the primary.
The Shadow is for large paddlers, the Legend for medium (it’s the boat Nigel himself paddles most), the Silhouette for smaller paddlers.
Of course now that CD has but the Rumour into production there is once again a Foster designed day boat available. Though my understanding is that it is truly a small person’s boat with the lightest primary of any of his designs. Now if only someone would put the Echo back into production.
Explorer Seat
I’ve owned an Explorer for several years and found the seat would become quite uncomfortable after about two hours of paddling. Rather than pulling the seat, which I didn’t want to do, I found a really nice alternative. I purchased one of those Cascade Designs inflatable kayak cushions. Basically a Thermarest pad designed to match the shape of a kayak seat. I attach it with velcro. I inflate it, then once I’m in the kayak, I let the air out until I’m just barely off the fiberglass seat. Works wonders and doesn’t raise my center of gravity hardly at all. I’ve now sat for up to 8 hours in my Explorer without any butt soreness…amazing!!! Not a bad solution for a boney arsed guy like myself.
Cheers,
NJP17