Nexus 70P

We’re heading for a showdown
starting on Sunday. I’ll present my views on piloting around in small boats. Bring your compass, dividers, plotters, charts and oh yes you must have a chart table aboard in order to navigate by dead reckoning as there is no flat surface aboard a kayak. lol I’d like to see that picture.

A beginner in kayaks yes. In boats and/or airplanes, I’m afraid not. You’ve succeeded in getting me motivated. As Greyak told me by e-mail, it should be about time to get an actual paddling related thread started here. One where some may eventually learn a thing or two. Hopefully I will too.

That’s a lot of electro-magnetic
interference you have there Greyak. It surely must raise cain with your accurate compass deviation tables for your correctly compensated compass, eh?

Sunday we start. Sort of like dueling banjos but with paddles?

You must have a really junky compass!
One of those stamped metal things with the wobbly flat metal needle, or maybe something built into your Swiss Army knife?



Electromagnetic interference? You are really reaching on this stuff. I’ve had military training in EM propogation - and I am involved with SAR [Specific Absorbtion of Radiation] testing on Cellular phones and Mobile Radios. You really don’t want to play in these waters, do you?



EM fields are simply not an issue with my deck compass. But even if they were, the small electronics I have put out extremely low EM fields. The VHF at max puts out 5 watts. I leave it set on one watt, as if I did need to transmit I would normally only have need to contact rather close vessels. That’s only when it’s transmitting, which is a rare event. My cell phone stays off.



I’m in receive mode only on everything, and the GPS only receives EXTREMELY weak satellite signals that are EVERYWHERE all the time. To top it off, everything is at least 3 feet away from my compass up on the forward hatch cover, and there is no metal of sufficient size or shape near it for any problems with induction or re-radiation.



What is your deal? Go find something fun to argue about will ya? It’s no fun to go back and forth with someone who is so far out in left field on this stuff! I really don’t enjoy telling people they are wrong over and over. You don’t even use a deck compass, so why do you care anyway?



What is this, another one of those annoying Devil’s Advocate posts (that posters think are clever) that make lots of really stupid arguments just to instigate good info for some lame article they want to write?

It’s called a nav-aid

– Last Updated: Jan-09-04 11:08 PM EST –

And with it you can do some pretty good plotting of positions, determine distance between two points on a chart, etc. Even at sea in a kayak. Whether one can do that if alone in moderate or worse conditnions is a matter of skill. Before you get too excited about this topic, why not read Burch on navigation, or look at a good kayaking video or two or get a navaid and work with it.

My nav-aid is usually attached to the chartcase, lying on my front deck marked in half mile increments; miles in red, half miles in black. I have some pre-planned courses written out on the chartcase before I hit the water. I use a chartcase which my sharpie will come off of when cleaned with alcohol.

Inaccuracies that would likely cause great problems to a long distance sailor trying to hit a small island after a ten day crossing mean much less to a kayaker doing an eight mile open sea leg.

I do not claim to be an expert at navigating through fog or dead reckoning. I carry a gps as back up, and I am learning constantly from paddlers who are better paddlers than I am! I give them respect and honor for teaching me, even the ones I pay to teach me. Imagine that!

I would not take my extensive off-trail hiking experience up to a airplane pilot and talk to him as if I knew more about navigating a plane than he did, and then laugh at his opinion to boot! It's a matter of respect for the accomplishment of another person in his or her field, paid for in the dear currencies of time and struggle.

Your opinion is wildly out of consensus of accomplished open water kayakers. Perhaps your genius will be revealed, and you will revolutionize the field of kayak navigation, but I'll not hold my breath for that event.

I am under no obligation to "show down" with you. This is not some boyish fantasy of the wild west, (a terrible myth to live by) and I am no sheriff. I wanted to make a strong counter-argument to your opinion, so as to possibly increase the safety of those beginning sea kayakers who might be giving credence to your post.

Two young women died because they paddled on a seriously foggy day off Cape Cod this summer. I think they would have found the cost of a GPS too high for their use level, they never would have bought one. They may well have lived if they had a compass, (even an handheld one). One of my paddling buddies was involved with the search while they were probably still alive, (one of the boyfriends saw him paddling). It shook him pretty badly. Think he's got the best compass he can get on his boat?

Since he brought it up…
I have a feeling the off-board email I got was the last thing close to logic we’ll hear from Cliffjrs on the subject, so included below is the email I got (personal contact info and such of course removed), and my response.



Both should have been here with the rest of this “showdown” L between the obvious and the obviously clueless.



Like Brian, I am not up for whatever mental midget wrestling Cliffjrs thinks is going to happen Sunday. If the warm up is any indication, it should be about as informative as a 2 year old trying to teach Sex Ed.



I still consider my self a beginner in most things kayak (and argue points here to learn more than anything else), but at least I have some concept of my limitations and know that there are others who know a hell of a lot more about many things than I do!



If Cliffjrs is really as smart as all that, perhaps it can best be proven by showing the capacity to argue both sides singlehandedly, as any half decent debater should be able to manage with ease. To see only one side of an argument is to know nothing. Both sides need to be clear before you can be persuasive one way or the other.



So much for more paddling related threads! This one’s way past done already.



What’s next Cliffjrs? You and the sponson guy gonna get into it over your new theory that sponsons need matching counter weights so they’re even MORE stable?





-----Original Message-----

From: Cliffjrs



Without seeming to go on whinning on the thread…with the dampening built into the compass, it “holds” straight even though your course does not. Trying to paddle a straight line by using a compass should reveal a snakes course with your gps. That’s assuming you are paddling without using a distant point as a point of reference.



My response:



The compass is smooth, but not sluggish. It is responsive enough to show stroke by stroke deviation if you look close enough, but the deviation is small for me as my boat holds a straight course pretty easily. A little dampening if good if it’s eliminating minor 1-2 degree stroke induced wobbles that even out, and mine doesn’t cancel out much more than that.



Reviews of my GPS logs pretty clearly show sections where I was mindful of the compass and ones where I was not. Of course I use other visual references too, but the compass REALLY tunes it up.



Like I said, I find it VERY useful for me. Particularly on coastal paddles and bay crossings. For what the others are talking about, actual open water and limited visibility navigation, a good deck compass is indispensable.



If you don’t have use for one that’s fine, but that does not make a deck compass useless. To say that shows you not only don’t have need for one, but have not done a lot of paddling with one either. (Not meant to sound like a jab - paddle with what you need). It’s actually kind of hard for me to believe someone would argue that such a standard tool for sea kayakers is useless.



Thanks for the response,



Kris

I wasn’t going to get in here…
but figured Cliffjrs might need a little help since no one is coming to his aid.

The last time I saw my compass was about six or seven years ago when I was cleaning out my bottom bureau drawer.

It is in the same place as my slide rule!

I have made dozens and dozens of long distance crossings where land is no where in sight, and I simply plug in the coordinates where I want to land and follow the arrow.

There have been several small targets, that I am quite sure I would have missed due to error in drift if I had been using my compass, but then I am probably not quite as good a navigator as the great Peter!

And to the GPS critics, I put fresh batteries in before each long trip, keep a stash for my return trip, and have the GPS in a home made soft waterproof mount on my deck just as your compass would be mounted.

I’ll take a GPS for my navigation any day over a compass.

Cheers,

JackL

Sure, in some applications it’s easier

– Last Updated: Jan-10-04 8:59 AM EST –

(quote) I have made dozens and dozens of long distance crossings where land is no where in sight, and I simply plug in the coordinates where I want to land and follow the arrow. (end)

And what happens in currents where you might have to set multiple ferry angles in a long crossing. What happens if you need to find a quick bail out and you haven't locked that in the GPS. you can easily mark them on a chart.

I'll hang my life on the earth's geomagnetic field, my nexus 70, good charts, my skills, a backup handheld and use my gps as backup. Becoming gps dependant as a first navigation modality is not the best unless there are a couple on board. Your gps gets smashed by a buddy who gets surfing and comes over your deck, or you get knocked into rocks, or a bad software crash and it's done for that unit.

Start with the most dependable, learn skills, have backups, especially in critical situations.

"Once you start down the quick and easy path, forever will it dominate your destiny" mangled quote

Lastly, Jack, It is sad, but unfortunately, now expected, that you fall to personal attack. Personal attack is no substitute for a good argument. I am an apprentice in a great tradition, (and a fairly low level apprentice at that).

boy don’t bring your guns to town,
son leave your guns at home!

I use both, but am better with the GPS
I’ve pre-picked waypoints off maps and loaded them and have hit every island point or bay by about 200ft. I know I wouldn’t get anywhere near that just with the compass. There are so many things that GPS simpifies. Want your ferry angle with no land in sight, maximize your velocity made good. Fighting a headwind and think your making no progress, look down and see that you are getting closer and how fast you are actually moving (usually faster than it feels).



That said, I will never give up the deck compass. I use it for reference all the time.

Follow up
Thanks for the insights so far, folks. Regarding installation, what have you done to cover the screw tips inside the front compartment on your boat to avoid snagging or puncturing dry bags and other stuff? I have considered a few things (putty, silicone, duct tape), but nothing seems permanent enough. Any suggestions?

Rounded tip nuts on screws
I would suggest getting screws (stainless) just long enough to get through the compass plate and deck. Then, buy some of those nuts (again stainless steel) that are rounded over one end (are these called “hex caps”? I am not sure of the name for the part). The round nut/cap tightened on the end of the small mounting screws should cause minimal snagging, as they should be pretty low profile against the deck. A thin nylon or rubber washer between the nut and the underside of the deck may not be a bad idea, also, to ensure water tightness.



You should be able to find these in the stainless steel screws and nuts section in most marine suppliers or home center stores.

A second for cap nuts
Really a nice way to go. Marine grade stainless please.

I think they’re called “acorn” nuts.
In Canada they are, anyways.

I don’t have a compass well.
And my hatches are the hardshell variety with neoprene inner seals. The hatch cover is not positively located, so it won’t index well. Can the Nexus be direct deck mounted, and is this advisable? (I paddle a Prijon Catalina)

I might consider a ritchie

– Last Updated: Jan-12-04 8:52 PM EST –

mounted with marine grade velcro, if I didn't want a compass in the well. If you want a nexus 70 you can get a nexus 70 un or 70 une. Get lots of brackets put one on each boat and it's much cheaper than lots of compasses for fleet owners.


Look here:
http://www.brunton.com/catalog.php?item_id=108&subcategory_id=28&category_id=4&old_item_id=108&old_subcategory_id=28&old_category_id=4

If you shop around you can probably get it for shorter money. The brunton place was just easy to find.

That would work
Thanks Peter. Nice looking unit.

Handheld marine compass
http://www.weems-plath.com/productpage.asp?pk=74



This is what I had in mind when mentioning a handheld compass. It comes in quite handy when taking bearings from a kayak. It sure beats walking around the deck and taking sights over the compass on a kayak. It also works for navigation purposes too. Accuracy to within 1 degree.

And how do you put it on a lubberline
(that means in line with the boats centerline)to get an accurate heading. Even bungie-on compasses designed for kayaks quite often give errors of 5 to ten degrees due to misalignment. And that is before a pounding by surf. Kayaking with groups of sea kayakers who ossasionally check instruments with eachother has taught me this. If I need to take a bearing on an object I just point my boat at it. There are more elegant solutions but I cannot do them yet.





I have never walked the deck of my kayak for navigational purposes. What does that expression mean, does it refer to finding the sweet spot?



Others have talked about this hand bearing compass on this site before, and others (including me) have voiced admiration for it, but you have to have the leisure to aim and site through it.



Nexus 70 P’s are often available for 80 bucks or so, I’ve never paid more than 90 for mine. Seems like that weems plath compass might cost a bit more, but I notice ritchie markets a cheaper one, and I’m sure fans of sportman’s guide can find very similar units for way cheap from time to time



Anything works in a pond! I know I paddle in one 70 days a year!



Let’s let this thread rest soon, OK?

Just sight over the bow
http://www.auxetrain.org/plotting2.htm Scroll down to Bearings and aquaint yourself.

Next time I am piloting a sailboat
I’m sure I’ll find that information very relevant. One last time, the scale for a kayaker is different so the need for precision is different!



A 5 degree plotting error from an object I can see in my kayak is not so huge. I think it could well be cut to less with skill and care as well. I can point my boat much more easily than a sailboat in most conditions I paddle in. I can control the direction of my boat using my power directly, not waiting for a rudder and my momentum to do that for me. Maybe in time those with experience in sea kayaking will make as fine a document for kayaking as that one is for sailboats.



!!!I find that applying your opinions to sea kayaking would be dangerous. So I stand against them. This one last post !!!



They are certainly well outside the consensus of 95% of experienced sea kayakers. And no amount of argument short of a effecting a revolution in sea kayak navigation will change that fact.



Read Burch, get some kayaking navigation experience in somewhat challenging conditions, then you may well have something to contribute to this field other than small bits from other fields of navigation in which you have accomplishment.



Having made my points for safety of paddlers, I will not even bother to read this thread again.



For safety I recap my points.



Learning to use a chart and compass is a very good thing. Worth investing time and money in as this is the most reliable technology. It will not fail due to a software crash, cold weather shortening battery life etc etc. Carry a hand compass for back up if you might be paddling alone.



A deck compass is the most useful compass type for use in a kayak especially in conditions where it really counts. Get the most accurate one you can!



A good gps is really useful, especially as a backup, but is no substitute for chart and compass skills.



Skills with a navaid are highly useful for sea kayakers or big lake paddlers. Especially if the nav aid has been properly set up for the chart.



Two last recommendations: take revolutionary advice from beginners in a specialized sub-field who have great experience in related sub-fields for what it is. Take the consensus or those with great experience in the specific sub-field for what it is too.