agreed
You’re exactly right – the goal is to keep rescuers from becoming victims.
I wasn’t saying that everyone needs to wear them all the time – just giving an example of wearing them while out of the water.
Habits
I have felt that something was missing–my bike helmet–when I went paddling.
I have also felt that something was missing–my sprayskirt–when I went cycling.
Habits are helpful sometimes and harmful others, but the one I most want to cultivate is that of paying attention and “living in the moment” because that’s how you notice something is missing.
An example of taking it too far
http://www.theonion.com/articles/life-jackets-issued-to-all-americans-for-some-reas,95/
Seriously though, any situation where you might need to be a rescuer from shore is also a place to always wear a PFD even if not in a boat.
Noticed several people within 10ft. of the water without PFDs in that Jackson Kayak vid over on the short WW kayak thread… Requiring PFD use within 10’ of the water for the general population would sure give some of these cities who are rejuvenating their towns with riverfront walkways a huge source of income from the issuance of tickets and fines though.
Oh, it’s great when someone presumes …
– Last Updated: Aug-07-12 1:07 PM EST –
... to know exactly what other people go through when overheated or working hard, and I particularly love it when some dude who's belly makes him look a lot more comfortable on the couch than working hard claims to know all about exercise and exertion and it's effect on someone ELSE (not sure if that's you, but it would apply to many). Ever drink two-and-a-half gallons of water in one afternoon and still pee a lot less than normal?? If not, then don't presume that you have a clue what I'm talking about. I sweat buckets when working hard in extreme heat, and wearing the PFD in very hot, humid weather makes me sweat a whole lot more, and my water intake is the proof of that.
Also, I know what it feels like, physically and mentally, to lose 6 or 7 pounds of body weight in one hour of vigorous exercise in a too-hot environment because I did that countless times over a four-year period in a martial-arts club that trained in a university wrestling practice room that was upstairs, right under a metal roof (I usually checked my weight before and after just for curiousity's sake, so that's no guess or exaggeration). That's really not a very healthy situation to put oneself in if you can't immediately replace the water loss, but I know what it feels like and I get the same feeling when it's 98 degrees and I'm trying to cram in a lot of miles to get someplace in a limited time and the sweat is just pouring off of me. If I didn't count on needing to bring that much extra water along it's definitely something to be avoided. It doesn't happen often, but once or twice each summer is enough to remind me of the potential for trouble. In actual fact, I seldom want a paddling trip to turn into a death march - I'm out there to have fun - but this sort of thing can sometimes happen.
But that's just what I know about myself. For all I know, you could blow right by me on such a day, and maybe go twice as far without overheating or even sweating a drop (and being a kayaker, perhaps you can for that reason alone). As for me, I know that when paddling or rowing hard (rowing is much worse by the way, in proportion with the extra power generated) in extreme heat I'll get much hotter and need a lot more water and have a much greater chance of feeling woosey with the PFD than without.
Yes, it helps to splash water on the clothes, but that's a big area under the PFD, and that area no longer contributes a thing to cooling.
And I never said this is common or that I'd automatically go without the PFD in such a case except in certain, very-safe paddling environments, so I'm not copping-out or looking for excuses. I'm just saying that for some people in some weather conditions, the effect on body temperature can be very real.
out of context
if you’re an hour from shore, you’re NOT in “shallow water” of any approximation!
Always… Never
Always wear your pfd as you never know when you will need it. You can’t predict situations so wear it. Applies to seat belts, helmets etc.
Ok - sooo
You don’t paddle in cold enough stuff to have had occasion to test out what happens when a person gets chilled. Some here have, like water-walker.
I stand by my opinion
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For the vast majority it's a copout to not use a PFD. I sweat easily, paddle in hot temps, and have an athletic background and I think people use it as an excuse.
I'm one of those people who sweat inordinately. I've done a weeklong trip a week after the solstice, during our hottest weeks. Two days of that trip was done with little possibility of landing and temps were in the 80s to 90s. During that trip I lost 20 pounds in spite of a 1,200 calorie breakfast. While in college and after I played soccer. So yes, I know a bit about what I'm speaking.
A PFD has no sleeves. A PFD has either a center or a side zipper. A PFD ALONE isn't going to make nearly the difference re: overheating that a wetsuit or drysuit will. In your experience, have you ever trialed a situation with and without PFD, maybe with zipper open, to see how much of a difference it really makes?
For the vast majority, heat is a copout. Maybe you're not in the vast majority. You are not going to be able to blame heat stroke on a PFD, not in any real world. I might give to "comfort", but then we'd all have to admit that some of us are more or less tolerable than others when it comes to comfort.
That’s getting closer to agreement
Yeah, in the real world, most of the time, the PFD won’t make a huge difference. I’m just saying that for me, and presumably others, there are conditions were it CAN make a very big difference in more than just comfort. No, I haven’t done time trials or anything, and that’s not quite the same thing as I was getting at because as long as I drink enough water I can keep going regardless of the heat. It’s the tremendous increase in sweating and necessary water intake that I’ve noticed, in those particular kinds of cases I was describing, and that’s something that can certainly make or break a trip. I’d never say heat is a reason to take the PFD off, UNLESS water conditions are quite benign, and for some people, on some rivers, that’s a definite possibility.
Hazards that are extraordinary
The point was that a PFD in shallow water is silly. Not that a PFD in 32 water in a storm is silly. The risk of drowning in 6 inches of water is so close to zero that a few people doing it is not motivation to take precautions.
You are more likely to be killed by a drunk driver than you are in your kayak and yet you might promote a PFD while not promoting a helmet in your car? Why is that when one activity is so much more dangerous than the other? The fact is that people, especially paddlers that have zero tolerance for people without PFD’s, have a very hard time seeing the difference between real danger and perceived danger. They tend to think that paddling without a PFD in warm shallow water is like playing ball on a busy freeway. It’s not at all the same.
What I do doesn’t really matter although I try to analyze risks based on the odds of bad things happening to me. I don’t take any precautions based on the rules of other people who base their decisions on tradition or principal alone.
Dave
that’s correct, some people don’t
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...worry about cold water! What a surprise!!! ;-)
"You don't paddle in cold enough stuff to have had occasion to test out what happens when a person gets chilled. Some here have, like water-walker."
I'm sure their experience is importaint, TO THEM!
It's an experience that has little relevant to me any more. (it once did, but no more, as I'm in no position to paddle in winter) And I resent that implication that anyone who doesn't paddle in winter are somewhat inferior paddlers!
In short, in warm SHALLOW water close to shore, PFS is far from "neccesary" for people who can swim!!!
Strap-on supplemental brain units
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PFDs while standing within 10 ft of water's edge are not the solution. Supplement the brain, not the body.
Parents attach ropes to kids playing in eddies at play parks. Tubers hold beer cans (single or multiple) that fly into the air when they go over even small drops. People attach ropes to boulders in middle of river so they can ride on a riverboard like being towed by a powerboat. People throw large sticks and other objects in the middle of a crowded river for their dogs to jump in and fetch. Loose dogs, period.
Not wearing a PFD might hurt the individual making that choice. But constructing rope barriers across flowing water hurts other people. For this reason alone, I think reducing or eliminating the above hazards is of higher priority than making everybody wear PFDs.
That is NOT what I said
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I only stated a fact, that you had not had occasion to test out what happens in colder water. Your reply indicates I was correct, at least in more recent times. I haven't said a darned thing about your paddling level.
It might have shortened some of the back and forth if you had been more specific that you were limiting your considerations to warm water paddling, especially since colder weather paddling has been mentioned quite a bit as a part of peoples' response. And no one has made it about skill. For those who paddle into colder temperatures, water or air, it is a matter of practicality to be sure of what you can and can't handle.
huh???
“It might have shortened some of the back and forth if you had been more specific that you were limiting your considerations to warm water paddling,”
Which I had mentioned MULTIPLE TIMES in this “back and forth”, of which you seems all too blissful to noticed!!!
And you seem to lose track of the thread which is about SHALLOW water, which had been expanded to water that may not be shallow but are nonetheless close to shore. Tell me how cold water immersion for an hour has anything to do with that???
Every time there’s a thread about beginner, summer paddling, some holier than thou posts will appear on and on about cold water and rough water! It’s entirely out of context and totally pointless. Except, of course, someone needs to show off they paddle in such condition and therefore are superior paddlers. These people are not shy to insist others at least DRESS like them, whatever the condition others paddle.
I paddle rough water just as much as some of you. And I dress appropriately when I do so. I’m just sick and tired of people talking down to those who don’t paddle in cold rough water either by default (living in Florida) or by choice (skiing in the winter)! It serves no practical purpose nor foster support from the community. I know the internet is male dominated and chest thumping is to be accepted. I just didn’t expect it from you, celia.
Uncle
I just rechecked and, at least in your replies to my raising cold water as a factor, I don’t see much in the way of warm water parameters. Maybe in a part of this thread where you were rounding with someone else - I didn’t look.
This probably comes down to a difference in personal experience. I have encountered at least a couple of people who were supposedly able to swim, by all normal means of finding that out, who damn near drowned in shallow water because they were so panicked by surprise at being there. Both salt and fresh water. “Being a swimmer” is a condition about which I have learned to be very skeptical, at least in terms of it overcoming panic and fear.
in that case
"This probably comes down to a difference in personal experience. I have encountered at least a couple of people who were supposedly able to swim, by all normal means of finding that out, who damn near drowned in shallow water because they were so panicked by surprise at being there. Both salt and fresh water. “Being a swimmer” is a condition about which I have learned to be very skeptical, at least in terms of it overcoming panic and fear."
Did they got out by themselves or did they end up being rescued?
I could be quite “surprised” if I were taking picture of something and hit a rock and tip over. I might even choke if I really wasn’t paying attention. Heck, when I swam into the deep end of the pool without intended to, I was mighty “surprised”!!! But that’s not to say I can’t collect myself and swim ashore.
As I recall
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One was in the shallow end of a community swimming pool when I was younger. The person had been puddling around with a very basic stroke and it was usual for them. They were by all visible clues a swimmer, just a lousy one. They came in and slipped when they tried to stand up in the shallow end and went sputtering under, then were subsequently unable to get their feet under them because panic took over the minute their head was under water. Someone nearby pulled them out - they weren't going to find air themselves. It turned out that they could dog paddle all day long and regularly did, but went into instant panic when their head went under water.
The exact same thing happened to my totally non-swimming stepmother when she tried wading in the shallow end of a relative's pool. She had to be pulled out from 3 feet of water.
Two people with quite different comfort levels about being in the water without standing on something solid, but panic made them both the same.
I have much more respect for the debilitating effects of panic than I do for most "swimmers" abilities. I have some claustrophobia under a boat myself that becomes an annual acclimation event when it comes time to renew rolling practice. If I am surprised as well by a new environment - WW, surf or whatever - it takes a number of wet exits before I can hold it together well enough to do any more than find the grab loop.
I have body surfed and gotten tumbled in four foot breakers, have a useless freestyle but when I spend some time in the water can do a flat dive, virtually never lose track of which way is up with my eyes closed and can stay afloat with arms/legs out of action because that's what happens when you cramp. Basically staying afloat and gradually easing my way out of current is not a big deal for me when I renew my water time. But I can still panic when taken by surprise, it just takes a bigger surprise than for some.
(Later PS - and I was able to cram enough on strokes to pass a variety of swimming tests in my life - to go into the "big" pool, take a canoe out solo at camp as well as get the Red Cross Junior Lifesaving cert. It isn't always about swimming.)
fine then
If someone, like you, have a particular phobia, even if they’re not aware of it until then, I’ll concede PFD would be a helpful thing to wear.
On the other hand, it’s no different than someone sliding down water slide at a water park. The first time I did it, I got a lung full of water because I hadn’t thought about close my mouth (and windpipe). But I stood up just fine (coughing), because the natural reaction of someone under water is to try to “get high”…
I supposed I’ll concede, for anyone who had never been surprised by water in their whole life and suspect they’re prone to panic attacks, they should wear a PFD even in knee deep water. I just never met one in person.
Lurkers - c’mon join in the fun
You’ve seen dozens of perspectives,
have some fun and post a comment/opinion.
automatic habit
– Last Updated: Aug-09-12 12:30 AM EST –
I worked for over 2 decades on large busy construction sites and got in the habit of ALWAYS wearing my hardhat. Didn't even take it off at break time and sometimes arrived home and realized I was still wearing it. I know for a fact it saved me from several concussions and worse. Also, having somersaulted over the handlebars of my commuter bike at age 26 sans helmet and ending up coming to in the ER with spinal fluid draining out of my left ear and a skull that looked like a cracked hardboiled egg, I never even bike on a grassy R to T trail without a helmet either.
Same thing with paddling and PFD's. I went through several models before finding one that is non-restricting and comfortable in even the hottest weather (Astral V-8). And I simply make it an automatic habit to wear it any time I paddle, EVERY time. Maybe I am just too lazy to want to have to expend any effort weighing whether or not a particular day's conditions, hazards and state regulations warrant wearing it
I think there are just some basic things in life that you should cultivate as automatic habits, like fastening a seat belt, blowing out candles before you leave a room, locking the driver's door with the key (so you never lock the key in the car), waiting for the "go" signal at crosswalks, checking the outlet with a voltage tester even though you are SURE you shut off the breaker and emailing angry or critical emails to yourself first for a second look before forwarding them to the intended recipient. PFD's, hard hats and bike helmets are all in that automatic category for me.