No sea/touring pedal kayaks?

Advice
#22

Short anwer. No

My first kayak was a Hobbie Odyssey which was the design basis for some of their first pedaled kayaks. It had excellent primary stability and very poor secondary stability. I have pedaled a Hobbie, I do not know which model and was surprised how fast you could go, I also had the feeling that there was poor secondary stability. On a calm day it would be fine. Five or six years ago I help rescue a group of kayak fishermen who had gotten caught in very heavy, short period breaking windswell and they had all capsized. We had a terrible time getting the pedal Hobbie in through high surf. I don’t think you would want to try the same thing by yourself in cold water on the unpredictable great lakes. Peter’s comments about a possible Pedal SINK seem pretty much spot on. Folks who do not paddle in rough water don’t realize that your paddle is 90% of the game in staying upright in rough water. Hanging onto the gunwales and pedaling won’t save you when you go past the secondary stability point.

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#23

Thanks so much! Seems like a valuable perspective. Do you think that secondary stability has improved in recent models, especially the longer offerings? Would a good set of outriggers make it any more sea-worthy? That all combined with a paddle-in-hand. I’ve read about outriggers failing at the most inopportune moments but I suppose you get what you pay for.

#24

With a good set of properly designed outriggers the boat would be extremely unlikely to capsize unless you put a sail rig on it or were out in absurdly rough conditions. And pedal drive kayaks are just as fast as many kayaks. Keep in mind that you still need a hand free now and again to steer it using a rudder.

The main disadvantage that I can see is not having a well fitted spray skirt that will not implode and swamp the boat in breaking waves. A SOT with a sealed hull seems a better option.

#25

I scanned through this string of responses and did not see mention of the simple fact that the Great Lakes have far colder water and unstable conditions than the southern coastal areas that many iof the respondents report pedal kayak experience with. Personally, I would not take an open kayak, especially a heavy wide Hobie SOT, 4 miles out on any Great Lake. In fact not even a half mile.

And I am puzzled why the OP is not translating what he must understand about bicycles into kayaks. You want speed and distance endurance you don’t go with heavy and wide. The fastest seagoing solo paddle boats are surf skis and outrigger canoes, no? The mechanics of propulsion in water are vastly different from those on land. Pedal kayaks make sense for fishing or photography where you need to have hands free.

As for the OP thinking that it would be best to leverage their existing lower body fitness into a different sport, I disagree that is the best strategy. My experience in taking avid road cyclists kayaking is that they need to be redirected from their reliance on lower body driving power and foward momentum (less of an issue with single track mountain bikers who are more accustomed to using their upper bodies and torsional balance in the more zigzagging motion and obstacle negotiation that is more similar to open water paddling in lumpy conditions ).

I have found that distance road and racing cyclists new to kayaking have a lot of trouble adapting to the optimal rotational torso movement that not only creates the most efficient paddling form but forestalls lower back pain and upper body fatigue and even injury. They have a habit of slumping in the cockpit and arm paddling (I suspect tight hamstrings could be one problem.) But I don’t view those impulses as a reason for them to avoid paddling and resort to pedal-driven craft. The best athletes crosstrain, choosing complimentary exercises that offer diverse challenges to their body mechanics rather than replicate the most common motions of their their primary sport.

JMHO, but I suspect the OP might better improve their overall fitness and achieve more satisfactory and safer distance workouts on the Great Lakes by sticking with conventional sit inside sea kayaks (or surf skis) and paddles.

#26

And prohibit edging and make surf in/outs more difficult.

#27

Thanks all for the discussion, this has been really interesting to follow and learn.

I’m getting a strong sense that pedal kayak designs still have plenty of room to specialize beyond fishing/photography, subject to demand and a willingness to accept new concepts.

scanned through this string of responses and did not see mention of the simple fact that the Great Lakes have far colder water and unstable conditions than the southern coastal areas that many iof the respondents report pedal kayak experience with.

@willowleaf Spot on, August is the only month water temps get above 70F, and wave patterns are choppy and inconsistent. Couple that with fast-changing weather patterns and this is not a ride to take lightly.

I absolutely understand that a Wilderness Systems Tempest is more “hydrodynamic” than a Hobie Revolution 15, for example. But physiologically, cycling endurance beats paddling endurance, and even with a small “hydrodynamic” penalty, I have to believe a pedal-drive kayak (like the Revo 15) would win out on calm water over long distances against good touring kayaks. Especially in recumbent positions, fewer core muscles are needed to maintain posture than when paddling. The problem is the sea-worthiness of current pedal-drive offerings, which we both agree is below-par, especially for the Great Lakes.

The best athletes crosstrain, choosing complimentary exercises that offer diverse challenges to their body mechanics rather than replicate the most common motions of their their primary sport.

Sounds like your opinion :slight_smile: In my opinion the “best” athletes are not all Ironmen. It’s important to know your body, set your goals, and effectively use your limited training time.

JMHO, but I suspect the OP might better improve their overall fitness and achieve more satisfactory and safer distance workouts on the Great Lakes by sticking with conventional sit inside sea kayaks (or surf skis) and paddles.

Good advice and I’ve decided to get a budget touring kayak to get experience with the traditional sport while also getting some pedal-drive option to compare, and I’m not sure on what exactly that will be yet. Nothing beats real life experience.

#28

Sounds like a wise plan. Once you get a feel for the big lakes you’ll be better equipped to tailor a boat to your goals.

I spent most summers on Lake Michigan growing up (both sets of grandparents were from Muskegon and have a lot of cousins still there) and often swam there daily. Began kayak touring while living in Grand Rapids for 8 years as an adult and have paddled Michigan, Erie and Ontario thus far – found them more challenging than some areas of the Pacific and Atlantic northern coasts that I have kayaked in .

As you mention, 70 F is to be expected in the summer near shore (and as a sturdy kid I acclimated to that quickly – not so much now I am older). But out past where the sun warms the shallows the lakes are closer to 40 F all year and sometimes the turnovers bring near freezing water into the tourist beaches even in the summer. Storms are unpredictable and come out of nowhere – we lost two family members who were caught by one such maelstrom while they were out body surfing off Pentwater nearly 30 years ago.

So from my experience with the Great Lakes, I would not go out far on them in any boat but one in which I was confident I could handle rough conditions and from which I could recover from a capsize and that I was pretty sure I could get back to land with manageable effort despite wind and chop.

For distance and speed outings, I’m glad I presently live near enough to several large wide flatwater rivers where I can paddle for miles in a straight line without worrying about being far from shore if the weather turns and in which the gradient flow is usually so mild that I can paddle upstream or down with similar effort and therefore return to my launch site without needing to set up a shuttle.

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#29

Agree with most of what has been said here. In paddle sports, performance for the most part means long and narrow and light. Narrow to the point where, even with the low cg you get when your butt sits 2 or 3 inches below water level, you need a blade in the water to remain upright. I would look at a peddle-driven catamaran; can we get carbon racing shells for hulls?

The other issue is wind. I’m a biker too and a 20 mph headwind takes all the fun out of it. Wind is way worse on the water than on land; look at the great lakes on Windy on any given day. Even with a recumbent cat you’d have a lot of sail area.

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#30

Good on ya

#31

From what I’ve learned about sea kayakers, speed isn’t what they rely on. Its the skill in boat handling.

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#32

I don’t know about sit in, but there is this one boat…

#33

When it is suggested that a peddle boat would naturally be faster than a sea kayak of a similar length, I have to wonder why the same hydrodynamics wouldn’t apply to the peddle boat. No one has mentioned that a peddle boat can plane under normal conditions.

About a year, or so ago, I happened to catch up with a tandem peddle boat that had two people peddling and they were moving right along. I kept with them for a little ways and then I had to get goiing. I had no problem leaving them far behind. Their boat was maybe 16 feet long. I was in my 19’ sea kayak. Another time I came upon a fellow in a peddle boat where the peddling mechanism drove a propeller instead of fins. I didn’t have the chance to pace this guy, but judging from the waves he generated for a short distance, I think I would have to hurt myself to try to keep up in the 17’ foot sea kayak I was paddling. A fellow I just met a couple of days ago said that he had tried out all the peddling boats he could demo and his Hobbies with fins were faster than any propeller rig.

When conditions get hairy, I would trust my paddle and the right sea kayak.

#34

When it is suggested that a peddle boat would naturally be faster than a sea kayak of a similar length, I have to wonder why the same hydrodynamics wouldn’t apply to the peddle boat. No one has mentioned that a peddle boat can plane under normal conditions.

About a year, or so ago, I happened to catch up with a tandem peddle boat that had two people peddling and they were moving right along. I kept with them for a little ways and then I had to get goiing. I had no problem leaving them far behind. Their boat was maybe 16 feet long. I was in my 19 foot sea kayak.

#35

I would look at a peddle-driven catamaran; can we get carbon racing shells for hulls?

Nice thinking! You’re envisioning a trimaran with a carbon-shell hull and carbon-shell outriggers? These are all things that can be molded cost-effectively in pieces and in halves, where halves can be epoxied together while pieces could be left inter-lockable for portability and on-site assembly. This design could be almost exclusively manufactured in-house at a carbon bike factory, for example, but tooling costs would require a decent capital fundraiser (probably around $50-100k). I’m don’t think much can be done re aerodynamics other than ensuring a deep recumbent position, narrow q-factor, and a slender pedal mast – large shells would get in the way of safety, and partial shells are great sails.

I wonder if surfboard-type hydrofoils below the outriggers would be effective, with a stabilizer on both ends of the hull, considering that the speeds needed to lift could easily be reached under pedal power.

#36

Im not familiar with catamaran stability or paddle propulsion, but I’m curious how either would stand up to the potential wave action of the Great Lakes, and which boat would have a better chance of being righted if capsized by a wave.

#37

Racing outriggers can handle the waters around Hawaii just fine – I’m sure the Great Lakes would be no problem.

OP: have you looked at these?

https://www.huki.com

#38

Except the waves are different. HI has ocean swells. They were big and farther apart.

Lake Superior we had 2ft varied waves close together. It was way more uncomfortable.

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#39

That is a good point. Though I have not paddled Superior I used to camp along it and my impression of both it and Erie are that they tend to have more confused wave patterns near and offshore than the eastern shore of Lake Michigan, with which I do have experience. I imagine that could be because the fetch on Erie and Superior is both northerly and westerly whereas the prevailing winds are pretty consistently from the west along the LM eastern side. My recollections of Lake Michigan were surf from a few inches to over 6’ in sets with pretty regular periods.

Those with more experience with the lake may correct me on that. No doubt farther north on LM the winds are more variable. Though my googling for data on Superior’s fetch yielded this dense “white paper” on fetch comparison throughout the Great Lakes – the color coded maps show that fetch is much more dramatic in Superior. The paper also classifies Michigan and Huron as functioning as one contiguous lake in terms of fetch because whatever weather system hits LM apparently sweeps across flat lower Michigan unimpeded and straight to LH.

I do remember during the winters that I lived in West Michigan you could see how the winds were coming through by the orientation on radar maps of the diagonal bands of heavy vs light snow that would fall across the region. They tended to be between plus and minus 15 degrees of latitude so either WSW or WNW.

The Great Lakes are a pretty unique cluster of major freshwater inland seas and they often straddle the fluctuating Jetstream as it zig zags back and forth between the cold dry arctic systems pushing down across the Canadian Shield and the moist warm ones that migrate up from the Gulf of Mexico.

https://www.nature.com/articles/sdata2018295

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#40

Nice video! The possibility is a pedal powered outrigger. The question is how would it perform on the Great Lakes? On the video, I noticed the power boat out there with them. There’s the answer, at least until you become confident that the contraption works under adverse conditions. I’m good reserving pedal power for my bike and the paddle power for the kayak. There seems to be something therapeutic about the rythem of paddling and the action of the waves. I don’t think I would personally enjoy the experience by pedaling, by I say go for it.

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#41

I’ve paddled with peddle driven boats a few times. To date, they are pretty fast but a bit slower than my 22" x 18’ Necky Arluk 1.9. Then again, they were shorter and wider. If they were the same shape as my boat, I could easily see them a being faster, but without the ability to quickly brace, I wouldn’t want to be out in big open water with one.

An outrigger would solve this problem. A single outrigger would be very stabile and not to difficult to right in the unlikely event of a capsize. A twin outrigger would be almost impossible to capsize, but also to right again. The only time I have ever seen a boat with an outrigger capsize were ones with a sail rig.

The main problem with commercially available peddle craft in terms of speed and distance is due to hull shape. Most are relatively short and wide and designed for things other than long distance touring, like fishing where most people want an extremely stabile boat. Many you can stand up on.

If the industry though there was a great enough demand for a peddle drive touring boat, I’m sure they could design one. As far as the stamina and conditioning required to do distance paddling, I’m not sure how the two would compare. After two seasons of regular paddling I was typically doing 30+ mile out and back day trips in about eight hours up until a few years ago. I’m a bit antique now. I have no idea, with a properly outfitted boat back then, if I could have worked up to than in a peddle powered boat and which would have been easier.