'glass is shorter
When I say 'glass, it is referring to pretty much all composite boats. I use it as a shorthand, and when talking to folks who may be unfamiliar with other cloths. When I say S-Glass, I often then have to explain what it is to people. I similarly use “plastic” to refer to ABS and polyethylene boats, whether sandwiched or single layer.
Back to the OP, though - I think you would be much happier with a composite boat. Of all the composites made by the companies we are talking about, the cheapest are good value, the most expensive are lighter, but not necessarily any tougher.
Seriously - as a NC Prospector owner…
…I have to say that is not the boat you want. First time the wind comes up while on a lake or slow river, unless heavily-loaded, you will curse it. The Prospector does well in class1 and 2 rapids with a load, but it’s slow on flat water and catches the wind easily.
You need something made for lakes. Class 1 rivers won’t be a problem with halfway-good boat handling.
Spirit II
Any reason you tossed that one out? I mean, I’ve never paddled one, but from everything I’ve read it is supposed to be the “all-rounder” in Wenonah’s fleet. Many hulls are built asymetrically to get the exact sort of mix between stability and performance that you are looking for, so there’s no reason not to consider those.
As far as seats and thwarts, those are like components on a bicycle or reels on fishing rods - completely adjustable and changable. I think you should probably focus on getting a hull that performs the way you want it to. If need to move a thwart or add a center seat to solo, that’s fairly easy and inexpensive to do.
Also, since this is the 21st century and all, if your local shop doesn’t have what you are looking for, there’s plenty of on-line dealers. I know Appomatax River Company ships around the country. I think Rutabega does too. There’s always Mohawk too.
Happy canoe buying.
I admire the design, but the reason I
would “toss it out” is that, like my rather similar Bluewater Chippewa, the Spirit II is not a good solo canoe. It resists being heeled, and without heeling it, even very tall paddlers like myself have a hard time reaching out to paddle effectively. One could buy the Aurora, Wenonah’s 16 foot version of the Spirit II, but the Aurora doesn’t heel that well either.
Prospectors, properly designed and described, heel rather easily, and even little people like Becky Mason can manage them very effectively.
If someone wants a canoe that is big enough for tandem travel, but that will be quite acceptable for solo paddling, a prospector is among the best choices.
Find the Bluewater…
– Last Updated: Apr-21-12 10:50 PM EST –
...very, very light on the water when unloaded, and hence what we call 'cranky' - not tender, but fussy - hard to hold on line, and twitchy. There just doesn't seem to be any glide worthwhile in mine - loses way real quick between strokes. However, it's a totally different boat with a solid load - a couple of hundred pounds aboard, and it feels a lot more settled and the glide markedly improves.
I liked my friend's NovaCraft better - would have traded, but he wrapped his around a rock in a river, pinned the bottom to the centre thwart, had to leave it overnight with the current pouring into the open canoe. Pried it off the rock next morning, and it popped back into shape - and DIDN'T LEAK!. A gunwale had snapped, the gelcoat was a dog's dinner, but he sorted those out in a day or two's work. She still ain't what you'd call real pretty, but he's traveled a whole lot of water in it since...
Bill Mason and the Pal and Prospector
One reason the Chestnut Prospector is famous is because Bill Mason called it the perfect canoe.
However, in just about all of his solo films he is in a Chestnut Pal both on flatwater and easy whitewater. He only switched to the Prospector when he was filming runs through class 3 rapids.
If you are going to be almost exclusively a lake paddler, solo and/or tandem, I’d get a lake hull. That’s not a rockered Prospector, such as the Chestnut or Nova Craft. (I say it that way because I have counted more than 30 different modern canoes bearing the name Prospector.) I think Idaho Steve is giving you honest and practical advice.
When do you NEED to heel a hull for drill-water pivots when paddling a lake? Virtually never. What you need on the open stretches, wind and waves of lakewater paddling, as a practical matter, is a hull that tracks well and is seaworthy.
OK, then nominate a hull that does not
need to be heeled, behaves well solo, and can also carry two paddlers and several nights of gear. AND I think it should be competent on whitewater up to the level of most of Nantahala, except for Lesser Wesser.
Good solo, good tandem, OK on lakes and easy whitewater. We’re open for nominations.
WW is not the topic
The OP has ruled out WW as being a factor. He wants a lake boat. Any lake boat can also run class 1 rapids with modest paddler experience.
Most tandem Wenonahs are lake boats. Many others have already been mentioned.
No one needs to heel a lake canoe to paddle it solo, either to turn or go straight. Some may like to do that, a la so-called Canadian style paddling, but I don’t think many paddlers paddle long distances in wind and waves on a standing heel.
The OP says he’s narrowed it down to the NC Prospector or a Wenonah Boundary Waters 17. I’m not familiar with the latter at all, but wouldn’t think any 17’ canoe is an ideal solo, heel-able or not.
The Pal is a very commonly soloed tandem hull, used by many trippers. And it can be heeled just fine. Watch any Bill Mason video. I was supporting that recommendation.
Narrowed the field
After paddling yesterday at the dealer, ruled out the Pal. Great looking and responsive canoe, but still a little light on initial stability for our fishing needs. So we’re down to Wenonah Boundary Waters 17 (very serviceable, but boring performance) and the Wenonah Wenonah 17 (slightly more performance, good stability, a little tight for the bow person for longer paddle days and fishing). Since we’ll probably special order, we also could consider any other Wenonah or Mad River that someone suggests as a good boundary waters/fishing canoe. Boundary Waters and Wenonah 17 are both 17’, shallow arch bottoms, BW has 1" rocker, Wenonah 17 has 2". BW height is 20, 14, 20; 35" wide, symmetrical. Wenonah 17 is 22, 13 1/2, 22, 34 1/2 wide, symmetrical.
With the height on the ends and the 2" rocker will the Wenonah struggle in wind?
Rocker and Wind
– Last Updated: Apr-22-12 12:10 PM EST –
When paddling tandem you'll have no unusual degree of trouble with the wind in either boat. I can't tell you for sure what it will be like solo, since I've hardly ever solo-paddled a 17-foot boat.
This may not be directly applicable to your situation, but I HAVE seen a good indication that harder tracking isn't always such a good thing in wind, even though it's what most people automatically assume is a good thing. In windy weather I much prefer my Odyssey 14, a boat with moderate rocker and very-good turning ability, over my Bell Merlin II which tracks a whole lot harder. That's in spite of the fact that the Merlin II has a lot less "sail area" to grab the wind too. I find that in strong wind, the harder-tracking canoe will sometimes get "locked in" to an unwanted heading and be really hard to muscle back to the proper heading, while the looser-tracking boat, in spite of the extra hull area for the wind to grab, is many times easier to put on a course that the wind would "un-do" if it had its way, and many times easier to bring back in line after being pulled off-course. To me, it seems that a hull which naturally puts the paddler in control of keeping course instead of relying on the "control" provided by a hard-tracking design greatly reduces control problems in wind. My experience is with small solo boats though, and the situation may be very different with something as big as the models you are considering. I'd be interested in hearing what others think about rocker and wind with a bigger boat, and if anyone else has found that "breaking the rules" by choosing a looser-tracking boat actually makes control on windy days easier. Personally, if had to solo paddle such a big canoe, I'd want to stay out of the wind as much as possible no matter what model boat I had.
The two boats cited
have different hull shapes. The Merlin II is swedeform and that shape in itself is harder to whack back in line.
It is quite easy though by not applying muscle. By coming to a complete stop on the water I could bring it back on track. The key was not applying forward momentum.
May not be talking about the same thing
– Last Updated: Apr-22-12 2:26 PM EST –
Lets compare apples to apples and stick with my comparison when controlling a boat while moving. However, even setting aside that inconsistency for a moment, if you compare two stationary boats that are crosswise to the wind, the boat for which contact surface with the water is relatively uniform along its whole length gets "pinned" between wind and water to a much greater extent than a boat for which contact with the water becomes looser toward the ends (that's probably good reason to heel the harder-tracking boat in many cases, but since the Merlin II also does not "like" large waves particularly well, that option can have it's limits). I'm glad you find your solution when blown off course to be satisfactory, but for me, the idea of stopping to correct the heading isn't appealing at all, especially when I could have chosen to use a boat that responds via a nice light touch in spite of what the wind tries to make the boat do, even at unfavorable wind angles. I'm not saying the Merlin II is a bad boat or that it can't be controlled in wind, only that it is at a severe disadvantage in strong wind compared to the lowly Odyssey 14, and I don't think I'm wrong to attribute this to the Odyssey's less-grabby ends (especially the stern, and the stern of a Merlin II is quite "sticky" by nearly anyone's definition). Experience here makes me expect you're gonna tell me I'm wrong about that, but for myself, when it comes to solo canoes, I'll continue to pick the greater responsiveness of a moderately-rockered boat with no trace of a sticky stern when the wind is making things tough.
Wen 17 vs. Wen BW 17
OP has re-focused on these two Wenonah’s.
Based on what I can figure out from your paddling interests, I would forget the solo paddling factor. No 17’ tandem with high initial stability is going to be a performance or efficient solo hull.
So, concentrate on what seems to be most important to you – which seems to be a stable fishing tandem canoe for Boundary water lakes. Pick the canoe that seems the best for that. If you ever go solo, you’ll manage in either.
I’ve never paddled either hull but I like the specs, lines and looks of the Boundary Water model better than the 1965 original 17. The BW appears to be more stable and may even have more glide. The forward prow is usually better in waves than a recurved prow, but that can be also be affected by bow volume. I especially don’t like the thwart behind the bow seat in the 17, which will literally bar you from turning around in bow the seat to paddle solo. The BW model doesn’t have that annoying thwart placement.
Wen 17 vs. Wen BW 17
– Last Updated: Apr-22-12 2:57 PM EST –
Interesting info on the bow shape. The soloing that I'd do would be just to go fish in the boundary waters for short periods, if no one else was interested in fishing at the time. So much of the time on the water solo would not be paddling. Then also around our home if I took the canoe out to a lake to fish. Probably no extended solo paddling.
I also don't like the thwart behind the bow seat in the Wen 17. Was thinking of asking wenonah if they could build it without and put a sliding bow seat in slightly further back than the norm.
Also, my experience paddling the Spirit II is still nagging at me. I really expected to like that canoe better than the Wen 17 and Wen BW 17. The one we tested was in Barracuda layup and was pretty heavy at 55 lbs. It had good stability and maneuverability, but it just seemed dead in the water moving forward and it also has the forward thwart in the way if I had to paddle it out to fish alone.
I suppose I could just paddle solo from the stern seat.
So we sort of agree, after all.
“No 17’ tandem with high initial stability is going to be a performance or efficient solo hull.”
Rules out prospectors on two grounds, stability and efficiency. Still, I think if the OP could get over the stability issue (not an issue solo, and not an issue tandem if they fish together regularly), the right prospector would be good enough for solo and tandem that they could give away the efficiency issue.
Consider focusing on fishing
MacBadger, I’m just trying to help you approach this logically from what I can detect from your interests.
You keep mentioning fishing – solo by yourself while on a trip or just locally by your house. So, perhaps that should be the primary focus of your “canoe feel” reaction.
Neither of these hull will be elegant solo paddling hulls for long solo trips or for turning on a dime. So think of them more as solo float hulls.
Both hulls will work just fine as tandem tripping hulls with two paddlers.
So, perhaps you should focus on which one feels better as a fisher. Move around in both on the water. Stand up. Do it from the stern and the bow. Rock them from side to side to get more feel for things like leaning over with a fish net or pulling up an anchor.
If two fishers or floaters are in the boat, the bow paddler may want to turn around to face the stern paddler just to talk. Which has the better central hull shape, area and stability to facilitate this kind of non-paddling activity?
It also sounds as if your style of use probably won’t involve heroic fights against wind and waves.
Just some things to think about.
I look at it like this…
– Last Updated: Apr-22-12 5:21 PM EST –
If you can ride a bicycle without falling down, any of the canoes discussed here so far can be suitable for fishing (high initial stability is over-rated). Any of them can be paddled solo on flat water if wind is avoided and neither speed nor maneuverability is an issue. Only one of them is best for tandem paddling the BWCA.
edit: As an afterthought...
I haven't and won't soon do a trip through an area as big as the BWCA - but when I look forward to a little fishing or day-tripping on a lake, whether solo or tandem, the boat that I think of most is my Malecite....one known for a lack of initial stability, a lack of serious rocker, and a low profile. The Prospector isn't even in the running - and though I sold the OT Camper (which is loaded with initial stability) some time ago, neither would it be.