Of Nordcapp LV and impact of lower volu

Not only I haven’t seen his boat…
I never met Charlie :slight_smile:

A couple of things
Aside from the just plain fun one can have like throwing yourself over and splashing down into a balance brace (which in turn really frees your mind), I think the biggest things for me were: 1. Developing a much greater sensitivity for what the boat and blade were doing since the feedback is so fast; 2. Developing a more balanced and nuanced use of the paddle; 3. Becoming more relaxed and confident through learning to be subtle. I guess you could say it is easier to learn to dance with a fluid, light footed partner.

Avocet ideal loading understated

– Last Updated: Dec-20-07 2:50 PM EST –

As I recall, even Peter Orton agreed that 140 as ideal weight for the Avocet might be a bit under what is actually the load the boat performs best carrying. Certainly most paddlers I know who own Avocets weigh a good bit more than 140.

There is very little volume in the bow and stern of the Nordlow. It also feels more spritely to me than an Avocet - YMMV.

I've always thought an Anas had less volume than an Avocet...

Nordkapps are not high volume
The Norkapps are deceptively low- volume (or, not high-volume) boats. The hull has very fine ends, especially in the stern. I was told that the original Nordkapp is lower volume than the Romany 16 (someone I know did the whole measure- water -and -fill -the- boat volume test) and the H20 is actually lower volume than the Necky Chatham 16, which looks very small on the water but, like a lot of more recent boats, the beam is carried farther fore and aft. Probably part of what makes the Nordkapps fast but a bit twitchy.

Maybe it is
I have only seen unofficial volume numbers for the AA (288 liters). On the same list they showed the Avocet as having two different volumes one above (298) and one below (278) the AA with lower being the more likely? number. 11.69 cubic feet equals 330 liters and that seems too big, but its all a mystery to me and probably depends on the yardstick used.

Probably, not so easy

– Last Updated: Dec-20-07 5:20 PM EST –

"They fairly easily could be. Design software, a bit of experience with this stuff, and a CNC panel cutter..."

CLC does use a CNC (confused yet?) cutter.

The problem is that all those custom pieces have to fit together. I'm not sure if all of that magic is in the digital domain.

Another problem with custom boats is that the customer might not like what he ends up with. While you could make a disclaimer, problems with a custom boat would reflect back on the company.

Also, you could probably cut scores of the same kit in the time it would take to cut a single custom one if you concider all the extra time dealing with a one-off item. If CLC had to manage the CAD work, how much time would that take?

How much extra would somebody pay for a custom job?


Worth at least 50% more…
… assuming a good bit of the specs/design variables are worked out by the customer and remaining work is mostly verification and kit production. If company does everything, and customer only provides basic height/weight/intent - then a good bit more, and then might be getting away from their business model a bit too much for them to bother with.



I never said everything would be done digitally either. Top pull it off requires some prior design, panel development, and building experience of both company and customer (to further spell out “experience” for you).



Trouble is getting customers that really know what they want and understand and can articulate this well enough to give the needed design input to for the designer to make the right compromises and create a kayak that really does as intended once built.



It’s done with skin boats all the time - as the standard way - and there are even CUSTOM SOF kits now. Changing the construction methods/materials does not preclude this level of customization - it just presents different challenges.



It can DEFINITELY be done - and already IS done to various degrees. People do one-off S&G all the time, and some outsource the panels cutting (biggest benefit of a kit). Some are modifications of existing designs, others entirely new designs. I’ve seen and been in several one of a kind S&G kayaks.



Only difference with a custom S&G kit vs a 100% self done S&G custom is someone else gets the materials together and cuts the panels for you - maybe throws in a basic building guide.



If I did a design suitable for S&G I could develop the panels via free software and verify fit via a quick scale model, and get panels cut locally if I didn’t just do it myself the old fashioned way plotting/lofting/jig saw.



I think an outfit like CLC could also take those files and deliver a complete kit as long as I’d not hold them accountable for the design’s suitability/performance. They might have no interest in such business, and not want to hassle with or charge for setup, but they could do it.



Hang out on the building board over at http://www.kayakforum.com a while and see some of what gets done - kits and customs - and you’ll see the line between them can be pretty blurry… The only thing really lacking to turn out custom kits is some organization - and more importantly proof of profitability for anyone to bother (where it all begins to fall apart). Still, it’s 100% possible.

We need to remedy that
He’s done a coule custom S&G and a few SOF. He is usually at George English at some point most weekends practicing rolls and such. If I here when and where from him I’ll pass it along…


It would be a real pleasure NM

Volumes
Peter,

Maybe Valley could include volume among the statistics for each model on the website?

Obvious

– Last Updated: Dec-21-07 1:55 PM EST –

Yes, obviously, it is possible. I did't say otherwise (obviously, that wasn't my point). I think it would be a hard business to build.

"might be getting away from their business model a bit too much for them to bother with."

That's the point.

Doing the custom work would have to be more profitable than building the business they already have.

"Trouble is getting customers that really know what they want and understand and can articulate this well enough to give the needed design input to for the designer to make the right compromises and create a kayak that really does as intended once built."

This would be a big problem.

"It's done with skin boats all the time - as the standard way - and there are even CUSTOM SOF kits now. Changing the construction methods/materials does not preclude this level of customization - it just presents different challenges."

Obviously. SOF boats are, from the start, largely custom. Anyway, one well-known person who runs classes now has the class build one boat type. Some customization is done, but it is limited.

"Only difference with a custom S&G kit vs a 100% self done S&G custom is someone else gets the materials together and cuts the panels for you - maybe throws in a basic building guide."

Another difference, important for profitability, is that there is no economy of scale with cutting out the custom boat. It tends to be much more expensive (soup to nuts) to manage a custom process than a standard one.

"It can DEFINITELY be done - and already IS done to various degrees. People do one-off S&G all the time, and some outsource the panels cutting (biggest benefit of a kit). Some are modifications of existing designs, others entirely new designs. I've seen and been in several one of a kind S&G kayaks."

Obviously.

"and more importantly proof of profitability for anyone to bother (where it all begins to fall apart). Still, it's 100% possible."

It's the profitability that is the real question. Obviously, it's possible to built custom boats (that's a pretty-well known fact).

The question is whether it would be sufficiently profitable for CLC to get into that business rather than building the business they already have.

The base price for a kit is about $1000.

As a wild guess, I would expect that a kit builder might be able to charge $1500 just for cutting out panels from a digital design. (Keep in mind that their production schedule is now being driven by a single customer.) Anything beyond simple cutting would be much more money. It's possible that this extra would need to be on a hour-cost basis ($100 per hour?). It is quite possible that some one only doing custom work would be able to make a profit at less cost to the customer than CLC.

ALL paddlesport buisnesses…
… are hard businesses to build, and few are really what most would call truly “profitable”.



Discussion left the rails when you veered off into questioning how “easy” it might be (nebulous and relative) -and then kept going and slammed smack into the wall of profitability (again nebulous and relative).



Most of this stuff is more a labor of love, where something someone is doing gets a little traction and builds a small customer base… Many are more like overgrown hobbies. If I could grow one up to a level where it would pay my bills and replace the 9-5 world day job, sounds pretty good to me.

What is your problem?

– Last Updated: Dec-21-07 2:12 PM EST –

Greyak: "They fairly easily could be. Design software, a bit of experience with this stuff, and a CNC panel cutter..."

YOU started with the "easy". Talk about "nebulous and relative"!

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mario: "but aren't S&G kits made "to order"?"

I was addressing THIS question. "Profitability" is the reason why they are not "made to order". Profitability is clearly relevent.

You where the one who "left the rails". Try to stay on topic.

"Most of this stuff is more a labor of love, where something someone is doing gets a little traction and builds a small customer base... Many are more like overgrown hobbies. If I could grow one up to a level where it would pay my bills and replace the 9-5 world day job, sounds pretty good to me."

There is nothing wrong with that. It certainly is one reason the paddle-sport industry is interesting. I think that CLC and Pygmy have grown beyond where this would be reasonable to do.

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Please provide the secret "off topic" list!

You seem to be under the impression that I am only speaking to you. That is not the case.

Back on topic
The answer to his question is: No, the existing kits aren’t custom made, and for mostly the same reasons there aren’t standard LV kits* (economies of scale), but there are even better options for getting a LV S&G that are not just LV but are also custom.


    • Side note: there was going to be a Sparrow Hawk kit at one point - though I don’t consider it a really low volume kayak it’s lower than many. Not sure why that was scrapped.



      FYI - I know Mario, paddled with him in the Winterfest boat parade just last Saturday, and can point him to at least three different local paddlers with custom LV S&G boats, all DIY and done on the cheap (relatively, of course - but I’d venture all cost less than a CLC/Pygmy kit). We also have a professional custom kayak builder locally who does his own designs and could also build or assist building something custom. Like a custom kit WITH an experienced mentor for a little more $ - or built for you for $$. Then there are the others who have helped with these projects…



      Are we done?

Very fine ends do NOT
make a boat faster, rather reduce the length of wave the hull creates, thus lowering Potential Speed, but enhancing efficiency at moderate speeds. A boat with very fine entry and exit will have a lower Cp which will effectively lower it’s Hull Speed, or Potential Speed. The effect is the same as shortening the LWL.



Yes, some boats like the CH 16, and similar playful boats tend toward fuller cross sections and carrying that volume in the chine for and aft. This creates stability and volume that combined with rocker allows for the ends to be free’d when boat is on edge. This also adds Frictional Resistance.



My guess is the Nordy LV is a great blend of these attributes resulting in a very efficient, fun boat. Yet another balance and compromise that seems to do a lot of things well. I sure loved my old Nordkapps as they were excellent distance efficient boats, not fast is the sense that a kayak designed specifically for speed is Not as fun in rock gardens as the shorter play boats “for me”.



There are no do-it-all kayaks. every one is a balance of design variables and the more specifically aligned against a performance objective the LESS well rounded they become. Rapier, surf kayaks, etc.



To me, a boat like the Nordy LV represents a terrific all round blend of efficiency, playfull ness, day tripping or distance touring.

Volume & Big Water Capability
I find it interesting that no one has mentioned any corellation between a kayak’s volume and its abilty to perform in big water.

Volume Distribution

– Last Updated: Dec-22-07 1:02 PM EST –

I would imagine how the volume is distributed would have the greatest effect in the performance of the boat in 'big water' among similar sized boats.

Salty has noted (including in this thread) how volume distribution impacts a boat's performance in varying situations. Often embedded in a post, rather than highlighted, Salty has been conveying a lot of useful insight and information about how various hull designs impact the performance of boats. I've learned much in the last week or so!