Bob, no BS
I was referring to air bags helping execute a Capistrano Flip in a large heavy canoe, not re-entering. This is may be the only way to empty such a canoe if no other canoes are around. If the OP is concerned about dealing with this situation, air bags can help. I’ve experimented with this many times over 20 years of teaching safety and rescue and yes, if the Flip is the only option, air bags make all the difference in the world.
I’m trying to offer solutions to the OP’s concerns. Why are you so angry in your response, throwing around the BS word? What’s your problem?
pagayeur
– Last Updated: Aug-08-14 1:23 AM EST –
My response was not directed to you, or anything you wrote; even though you obviously perceived it to be.
My response was to roanguy who wrote that everyone was giving BS responses to the OP.
I don't believe that to be true.
He stated that the OP would never be able to reenter a swamped canoe, no matter how much practice was done, because he does not have airbags for his canoe. Airbags would certainly make it easier, but the are NOT absolutely necessary to successfully reenter a swamped canoe. I gave examples.
I never referred to the Capistrano flip once.
But since you mentioned it: I suspect the OP & his family would not attempt that technique, with or without airbags.
My reasoning behind that assumption; the other 2 members of the family (as stated by OP) are hesitant to even go out on the water in the canoe for fear of capsizing. The Capistrano flip takes teamwork.
Pagayer, why are YOU so angry about my one time(throwing it around???) use of the abbreviation BS? You just used the same abbreviation in your post's subject line! What's wrong with you?
BOB
Bob, truce
I think there is an understandable mix-up here. I had written in a previous post about air bags helping in the event a Flip was the only emptying option. Your post seemed to be directed directly to that subject. Sorry for the mix-up.
I also was put off by roanguy’s remarks. There is no BS about safety and rescue. A paddler can never learn too much about this subject.
Pag
Get a rope about 4 feet long
I tie one end around a support as close to the center of the canoe and I tie a bowline knot in the other end. Now you can put you foot in the loop and use it like a stirrup on a saddle to get back in the canoe. Once you adjust the rope to the right length just coil it up and put a rubber band around it so it will be ready to use at a moments notice and will be out of the way the rest of the time.
Kayak_Ken
outriggers
try canoe outriggers
Clarification
– Last Updated: Aug-08-14 9:57 AM EST –
When you say to use that rope and loop as a stirrup, I assume that the rope must go over the gunwale on the opposite side of the boat from the side you are climbing into, correct? Anyone who's practiced or tried to enter a canoe from the water already knows you can't just put your weight on the near gunwale or you'll just get clobbered by the gunwale on the opposite side as the boat rolls over on you. Using a stirrup instead of your arms to apply weight to the gunwale doesn't change what the boat does when all that weight is applied to one edge.
I've never heard of anyone using a stirrup to enter a canoe, but attached to the opposite side of the boat, I imagine it could work. However, I envision serious complications as you push down with your foot and the rope immediately "pendulums" toward the far side, as nothing can stop the rope from assuming a vertical position once it's carrying your weight. This would put your lower body half under the canoe. I'd like to hear from someone who's actually tried this.
Maybe if you attached the rope by wrapping it around the whole boat, you could at least position the stirrup under the centerline, but honestly the more I think about this, the less it seems to me like it addresses the real complication, and that's how to get your body over the gunwale without rolling the boat.
Air bags a simple solution?
– Last Updated: Aug-08-14 10:03 AM EST –
The only time I ever practiced re-entering a canoe, it was with solo canoe that was bagged (not "fully bagged", but "very well bagged"). I didn't have the benefit of an expert coaching me, but I was unable to get back in, and let me assure you, I'm no slouch when it comes to mobility. I agree with others that tandem re-entry would be much easier than solo. No matter what anyone says, getting into a canoe by yourself isn't going to be made simple just by having air bags.
Guess I should have started with having
One person on each side of the canoe, one on the offside counter balancing the canoe while the first person gets in. After the first person gets in then they will lean over the offside while the second person uses the stirrup to get in.
Kayak_Ken
I have used the stirrup method
Its fiddly. requires a second boat to hold down the far edge and requires the rescuee to stand in the stirrup with the force directed straight down
It also requires a 14 foot loop or longer of strap or rope . It does work very well with sea kayaks… Google stirrup reentry. The double blade allows looping over the far side of the paddle and also the near side. A paddle float keeps the near side paddle from diving. The under boat loop helps maintain boat stability.
Any rescue is darn harder with seat backs in canoes. I rescued two in an Old Town poly boats. They had sitbacker chairs strapped to the seeat.
The heel hook is way faster and even if you get water in…with a kayak pump its possible to get water out fairly quickly. The kayak pump moves a lot of water without you having to fling water out of a bailer and possibly recapsizing yourself if your arme are waving.
When I do a stirrup rescue with a second boat I first loop the stirrup around the thwart closest to midships of the RESCUING boat and bring the RESCUED boat alongside. The loop is not tied to the recued boat but wrapped around a center thwart and then over the side to drop in the water… about two feet down from the hull bottom.
Not that hard
I disagree that it’s nearly impossible. We deal with newbies on a regular basis and they tip. about 12 of them (6 tandems) have done it this year. We have gotten every one of them back in the boat, often in a V1 Pro boat, and for all of them it was their first time trying an in water recovery, so its far from impossible.
The deciding factors are how athletic you are and how heavy the boat is. If you are out of shape, I agree the chances of a reentry are slim to nil. If you’re moderately athletic or better, I’d put your chances at 95% for a successful reboard. Also, if you have a 85 pound plastic boat, you’re going to have a very hard time righting it and will most likely need a bailer as you suggest.
Thanks Kim
– Last Updated: Aug-08-14 11:43 AM EST –
You confirmed my expectation, that this method simply won't work for a solo re-entry. That whole thing about holding the other side of the boat down is what worried me, something I don't think the person who suggested the method has experienced.
If you re-read the original post
He is worried about getting his family back in the canoe, not a solo re-entry.The best thing he and his family should do is take a intro to canoe class with a certified canoe instructor. Usually the first class they teach you how to get back in the canoe by yourself, with your partner and with another canoe.
Kayak_Ken
sure it will!
– Last Updated: Aug-08-14 2:54 PM EST –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI5F-670JRY
It requires an approach most might not consider...
I agree
As stated in an earlier post, most canoes do not have enough floatation for a Flip. But my wife and I can routinely do them if we add air bags. We get the smaller triangular-shaped kayak stem bags and put them in our 16 ft. tandem. Without them we cannot flip, with them we can. This has proven true for most hulls tested. So, if we are wilderness tripping and know we must go to deep water away from shore, we blow them up and tie them in. They are very easy to store and take out as needed.
Pag
Different boats
Flipping and emptying a J boat or V1 that weighs under 30 pounds, especially when there are other boats or paddlers to help, wouldn’t be too bad, even if solo.
But when I’m by myself I can’t flip my woodstrip Kite (40 pounds) and get enough water out to re-enter. I can just barely do it with my 34 pound Bell Magic but there’s still a couple gallons of water.
I can’t imagine trying to empty and flip a 60+ pound tandem unless I had someone competent bobbing around in the middle of the lake with me.
Getting in is the easy part.
BTW, my new woodstrip is done. Nice boat and fun to paddle but not as fast as I’d hoped.
Alan
BS
Ya
ya, we usually empty the boat fully with a T rescue before reboarding, so to your point, the weight of the boat matters a lot if you dont have another boat to help in the rescue. You could still do a T rescue with a 80 pound poly boat too I suppose. We’ve done it with a royalex MNII once, which is around 67lbs and it worked equally well. I can get my 32 pound boat totally over my head for a couple seconds if I hook a orange horse collar PFD under my leg which gives me a free 17 lbs buoyancy. Without additional lift though, I struggle to get it decently dry, so I agree with your point.
I was referring to the method described
… by the person I was responding to (naturally), but in any case, that looks pretty slick.
Hmm
I spent two entire afternoons, maybe more than that of the day, over two completely different sessions climbing in and out of canoes of various makes and sizes and materials. Wood, royal, metal some kind of crap heavy composite, kevlar and probably more I forgot.
The only universal was that in anything with full air bags I could eventually get back in and successfully empty the boat so I was dry. Without air bags, I could often climb into the boat but once in could not get it empty and navigable.
At 125 pounds the flip doesn’t always work for me. I sink instead. So I have to be able to bail the boat once inside it.
This was solo. I discovered to my surprise that tandem is really easy, whether you are the first or second in, as long as the person in the boat is willing to really lean out to counter-balance the person getting in. Even when I was counter-balancing someone 60 pounds heavier than me.
But maybe I was having a good day. I have to admit, a few of the boats took more than one try. The Mad River Guide was being kind of roly-poly on me - I think it was the third try before I didn’t recapsize the thing.
It can be done
if you rig up an outrigger consisting of a paddle bunged to a thwart with a paddle float on the blade (which is on the side of the paddler and stirrup).