Old Town Next, Wenonah Adirondack, Vagabond, Argosy for First Time Canoe

How about the Escapade with the optional middle seat and removable yoke. Has better reviews than the Solo Plus. Same length and has the bucket seats fore and aft. Same price as the Solo Plus. My wife liked the bucket seats when we looked at the Spirit II.

I read on the Wenonah brochure the Kevlar UL can be ordered with a color as a no charge option but it adds 6 to 8 lbs of weight. The Escapade Kevlar is 42lbs. Figure the extra seat will add 4lbs making it 46lbs. The color would add 6 to 8lbs so figure 7lbs so 53lbs. The Kevlar Flex Weave is 51lbs plus 4lbs for middle seat so 55lbs, color is built into the base weight. Not worth the extra $200 for Kevlar UL with paint and middle seat for 2lbs weight savings. The Tuff-Weave is $400 cheaper, 55lbs base plus 4lbs for center seat is 59lbs. Only a 6lb difference between the lights and heaviest.

We want to go with an Ivory finish. The white should hide scratches and reflect sun while on the truck and looks clean. The reason we don’t want just Kevlar is it will brown due to sun exposure over time and we really don’t like the translucency.

Thanks for your comments.

KJR

All aramid will darken in color over time. Many people prefer the darker color.

Light colored boats (white, sand, ivory, almond, etc) will show scratches less since composite boats tend to scratch “white”.

Wenonah Tuff-weave boats are well-made and plenty strong. The only disadvantage is the weight penalty.

I have no knowledge of the Heron tandem, but the Spirit II is an excellent all-around tandem.

@KJR said:
I have another thought. The first Wenonah we considered was the Heron, 15’ tandem. This would allow my occasional solos, tandem and the rare times when my daughter is with us. I’m 195lbs, wife is about 145 and daughter 130.

Personally, I’m not big on using small tandems as solo boats. They are too small for a tandem (with you in the back at 195, and your wife in the front at 145, I’ll bet the boat will be way out of trim), and they are too wide in the middle for comfortable solo paddling. It would definitely be tight for 3. I know lots of people like to paddle solo in tandems. I have a friend who paddles a MR Courier (14’ 7", 33"), and he does great, but he is no speed demon.

My wife liked the bucket seats when we looked at the Spirit II.

Bucket seats are great if like to sit, and with the sliding bucket in the front, you can move your wife’s seat forward to help with boat trim. I have a Spirit II in kevlar with bucket seats, and it is a great boat. I’ll bet the Escapade (16’ 6") would be fine as a tandem - especially with the sliding bow seat. Personally I think the Heron (15’) is a little small, but the only way to know for sure is to paddle it.

If you solo a bucket seat tandem you will be stuck in the rear seat with the bow pointed to the sky. Tractor seats are loved by some folks but lack versatility… They make kneeling when conditions sour fast darn near impossible

I’d solo the Escapade from the optional center seat. Seems with any tandem if the stern paddler is heavier than the bow paddler the boat will always be out of trim somewhat. I don’t want to haul 50lbs of ballast to trim out the boat. We are starting to realize canoe design are an exercise in compromise.

Thanks

KJR

You don’t need 50 lbs of ballast to trim out a 50 lb difference in paddler weights. In fact, an sliding front seat alone should do the trick. If not, something heavy like a few gallons of water as far forward in the stem will do it.

I am or was about 5’ 11" with a somewhat long torso for height. I found I had relatively little difficulty paddling and controlling a tandem paddling from center, even with a 35-36" beam. However, once you have a decent solo canoe, your appetite for paddling a big barge diminishes rapidly, I find.

Vagabond the gunwale width is 28, Solo Plus and Escapade 29. Total width for Vagabond is 29.75, Solo Plus 32.75 and Escapade 33.5". The difference in total width of a Vagabond to an Escapade is less than 2 inches on each sides. Gunwale widths are less than an inch between the Vagabond solo and the Solo Plus and Escapade. The Vagabond is more maneuverable but our main interests are lakes.
Thanks
KJR

Have you looked at the Swift canoes?

@KJR said:
Seems with any tandem if the stern paddler is heavier than the bow paddler the boat will always be out of trim somewhat. I don’t want to haul 50lbs of ballast to trim out the boat. We are starting to realize canoe design are an exercise in compromise.

Pblanc is right of course, but I’ll add something else. Establishing proper trim in a tandem canoe usually isn’t a highly exact thing in the first place. Racers in racing boats can be very fussy about it, but the rest of us, not so much. Even if both paddlers weigh the same, the stern paddler is at least a couple feet closer to his/her end of the boat than the bow paddler is from theirs, because the seats are positioned that way (there needs to be room for the bow paddler’s legs), and that by itself will make the boat noticeably heavier in the stern. Yet few people would notice that. I don’t outweigh my usual bow paddler by all that much, (maybe 30 pounds? I don’t even know), and since we each carry a change of clothes, and likely some extra clothes for weather changes, plus a day’s worth of drinking water and usually some food, simply putting that gear well in front of center (especially for the heavier items) goes a long way toward providing acceptable trim. Also, you and your partner are heavier than me and my paddling partner are, but the more weight you put in a canoe, the less difference any incremental change in weight will make, so I bet your potential difference in trim is no worse than ours, and ours is pretty inconsequential.

@KJR gunwale width is not very useful except to give an indication of the center width if you are paddling solo from the center . Wider gunwales require longer arms or heeling the boat.

Waterline width is very important and its one of those figures that is never published by other than a few high end builders like Hemlock Placid and Colden.

@ChetPunisher said:
Have you looked at the Swift canoes?
Looks like the only dealers are in NY and CT. Not much canoe selection here in SW Missouri. We have a local paddle store that is a Wenonah dealer so that is why I’m concentrating on that brand. There is a canoe company in Lebanon, MO, Osagian, they are aluminum canoes which is not my preference.

Our local paddling store has a demo Wenonah Aurora so we will wait until the weather warms to take it for a demo paddle to get an idea. The store person that we spoke to mentioned Wenonah is going to offer an additional construction for their canoes, supposed to be a replacement for Royalex. A material made in Canada, probably used by Nova Craft, maybe its TuffStuff. No mention on the Wenonah site. They mentioned they ordered a couple of canoes for April delivery using this new construction.

KJR

The replacement for Royalex would no doubt be T-Formex, from Esquif Canoe of Quebec. TuffStuff is really just a different lamination schedule and is not a material that can be thermoformed over a male mold like Royalex.

OK. I see T-Formex listed for Wenonah Aurora, Wilderness, Prospector models on their website. Looking at the Esquif canoes of similar length this material will probably be the heaviest in those models. No weights shown yet.

Have you looked for used boats? Much less expensive than buying new, and easy to resell if you don’t like what you bought. I pulled up Craigslist for St Louis (don’t know where you are) and saw a Dagger Tupelo solo boat, A MR Explorer and an OT Penobscot. You could probably find a solo and tandem for the price of a new Wenonah. I have 6 boats, and bought 5 of them used. I bought my first boat new, and it was the most expensive of the bunch (Bell Yellowstone Solo).

Yesterday we made arrangements to test paddle a Wenonah Aurora from our local paddle shop. Unfortunately, that is the only canoe, other than the 85lb plastic canoe. Their Aurora is in the blue TuffWeave layup, Today we met one of the staff at Springfield Lake (Missouri). Wife in the bow, me in the stern. I’ve been watching youTube videos on canoe strokes so I attempted to try out the strokes. First impression, its harder to paddle a canoe than our Sea Eagle FastTrack 385 using the kayak paddle. There was a slight breeze at times and could feel the affects of the wind. I found it was more comfortable to paddle from the left side. Trying to paddle on the right side was weak and not very controllable. My J strokes were kinda butchered on my favored side and non existent on the right side. I didn’t feel we could make that much headway even in parts of the lake where we were sheltered from the wind. The wife isn’t a strong person and found I was over powering her at times. I found the top of my legs near the hip were starting to ache and would’ve like to have had the optional foot support. What I liked about canoe paddles is even with my awkward paddle technique I didn’t bring any water into the boat. When we came back to shore I attempted solo. I sat in the front seat reversed but the bow stuck up too high so the staff member filled a large dry bag with water and placed it in the bow. That even the boat out better. I was able to paddle out and keep it kinda straight with the J stroke on the left side. I turned around and now with the wind blowing with me found it difficult to keep straight. Got back to shore I tried a kayak paddle for a quick solo paddle. While easier to keep paddling straight and better speed I didn’t like all the water I was bringing into the boat when one side of the kayak paddle was up for the opposite side stroke. Within a few minutes my pants where wet. One of the goals with a canoe was to paddle in cooler weather and not get wet paddling. We both agreed this first experience wasn’t as much fun as we had hoped.

On shore while the boat was not bad to lift with both of us at each end I don’t think we could lift it up onto our Ram 2500. I don’t think I could lift it up to my shoulders using the yoke without doing something to my back. With my Ram 2500 so tall it would be difficult for me to get the boat up on a rack as the Yakima rack on the camper shell is about 7 foot.

The Aurora has 1 1/2" rocker so maybe that was part of the issue along with our paddling techniques… 200lbs of me at the stern and 140lbs of wife in the bow. I’m wondering what a boat like a Solo Plus or Escapade with minimal rocker would be like to paddle in the same conditions. I don’t think if the wind had be stronger we would be able to handle the canoe.

A solo canoe like a Vagabond or Wilderness using a kayak paddle would be easier to paddle but I bet water from the kayak paddle would enter the boat which I want to avoid and two solo canoes are way out of our budget.

So after this experience we have decide to hold off on a canoe purchase. We would really like to test paddle a canoe like the Solo Plus or Escapade but probably won’t happen. Too much money to spend on such an uncertainty.

KJR

Perhaps you should look at two sit inside kayaks, or maybe two SOT kayaks. I was seriously looking into a pack canoe (canoe that you sit in more like a kayak & paddle with a double blade) as an alternative to my 60 lb. SOT kayak. They looked really cool, and they are a lot lighter than my kayak. But in the end, dealing with the wind was part of my decision to stick with a SOT kayak. The pack canoe I wanted was costly and would have to be shipped to Utah from back east. I wouldn’t have a chance to test paddle it. I paddled the closest thing I could find and decided to stay with a SOT kayak. I bought a SOT that was 1 foot longer, 10 pounds lighter, and got one with a rudder. I kept my other SOT as a loaner and it looks like it might get loaned out for a few trips & day paddles this season.

I’m glad you had the chance to paddle a few canoes so that you could get a realtistic idea of how they handle. You can always keep trying out more canoes, or try out some kayaks. You still have your Sea Eagles and they are very nice boats.

As for the wetness factor. I don’t think you’ll find a boat of any type that will eliminate drips of some sort. A sit inside kayak with a spray skirt will give you the best chance of not getting any water in your boat. I get a few paddle drips in my SOT, but my butt stays relatively dry. Paddling pants & jacket, semi-dry, or dry suits will keep you dry & warm in spring & fall.

@Raftergirl said:

As for the wetness factor. I don’t think you’ll find a boat of any type that will eliminate drips of some sort. A sit inside kayak with a spray skirt will give you the best chance of not getting any water in your boat. I get a few paddle drips in my SOT, but my butt stays relatively dry. Paddling pants & jacket, semi-dry, or dry suits will keep you dry & warm in spring & fall.

When paddling a canoe with a single-blade paddle, you WILL stay dry. The amount of water that might sometimes drip into the boat when you are switching sides is nothing compared to the amount that’s probably already in the boat from your wet boots, and like the water from your boots, it ends up on the floor, not on you. There shouldn’t ever be water dripping ON you at any time, so the OP was on the right track in that regard.

Rainy weather and open boats is a whole other issue.

@KJR said:
…My J strokes were kinda butchered on my favored side and non existent on the right side. I didn’t feel we could make that much headway even in parts of the lake where we were sheltered from the wind. The wife isn’t a strong person and found I was over powering her at times. I found the top of my legs near the hip were starting to ache and would’ve like to have had the optional foot support. … We both agreed this first experience wasn’t as much fun as we had hoped.

On shore while the boat was not bad to lift with both of us at each end I don’t think we could lift it up onto our Ram 2500. I don’t think I could lift it up to my shoulders using the yoke without doing something to my back. With my Ram 2500 so tall it would be difficult for me to get the boat up on a rack as the Yakima rack on the camper shell is about 7 foot.

The Aurora has 1 1/2" rocker so maybe that was part of the issue along with our paddling techniques… 200lbs of me at the stern and 140lbs of wife in the bow. I’m wondering what a boat like a Solo Plus or Escapade with minimal rocker would be like to paddle in the same conditions. I don’t think if the wind had be stronger we would be able to handle the canoe.

So after this experience we have decide to hold off on a canoe purchase. We would really like to test paddle a canoe like the Solo Plus or Escapade but probably won’t happen. Too much money to spend on such an uncertainty.

Too bad it didn’t work out better for you, and it is true that some people are just happier in kayaks, so you won’t be alone if you never get a canoe.

As to the wind and paddling skill, I would offer encouragement because it takes a good year to become proficient at the J-stroke, and that’s when giving yourself plenty of opportunities to practice and having a mindset of thinking carefully about what you are doing. Most people simply never “get it” at all unless they are fairly serious about wanting to. There’s nothing wrong with it if you don’t feel up to that, but in the end, wind becomes much less of an issue once basic control strokes are developed, and that’s why no has ever set foot in a canoe for the first time and done a good job paddling in wind. Also, you don’t have to be particularly strong to handle a canoe well in wind. You just need to be efficient, which of course only comes with practice.

A foot brace helps a lot with overall comfort when sitting, and to a lot of people, nothing even comes close to kneeling. I paddle a lot, but if I had to do so while sitting on a plain seat in an unmodified boat, I probably wouldn’t spent nearly as much time in canoes.

Boats with minimal rocker tend to hold their heading better in wind, but they are also harder to get back onto a proper heading once the wind has started to have its way. Ultimately, I don’t think the effect of rocker on a boat’s handling in wind is really much different than what’s otherwise the case. Either way, it’s a matter of learning to control the boat. One style of boat simply reacts more quickly than the other, but both ultimately will react to your intentions.

For loading, if you can’t get the canoe onto your shoulders without help, I’d try the two-person method I described earlier in this thread, where the two people lift the boat from opposite sides of center instead of from each end. With hands only being waist-high, you can get tilt the boat to get one end up onto a very high vehicle, as long as there’s a place to slide it once you get it that far, and that sliding feature can be customized into the rack in some way or accomplished with a rubber-backed rug on the vehicle itself.

It’s too bad you don’t have more opportunities for test-paddling. I can certainly understand being both discouraged and cautious at this point.

A canoe’s trim makes all the difference as to how a canoe handles. Canoe 101, you’ve gotta move up towards midships when the stern paddler’s heavier = often means either putting mods to the boat or adding weight up front. That Spirit II is a good tandem…see what kind of deal you can find. Totally agree with going USED…many quality brands are well-kept canoes by many, with just superficial scratches. Tuff-Weave is pretty heavy…while Wenonah’s mid-layup(between UL and Tuff-Weave) is okay. Swift, Hemlock, Northstar(formerly Bell) have some boats to check out… …and ditto GBG’s mentioning of a footbrace…sure adds some stability for comfort…
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