Because kayakers are notorious for being opinionated? Don’t know why, but kayaking is just one of those sports that sparks the never ending “tastes great…less filling” discussions.
“Nothing wrong with using a rudder, it’s that paddle. Get a canoe paddle”
-Verlen Kruger (probably) 
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Opinions arent doctrine. It’s preference. The
problem begins when someone believes their opinion is infallible.
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Many (most?) of us buy used boats. And many of those have the evil sliding foot pegs. So no need to be annoyed. The original comment was useful.
I admit I’m not a buy and sell kayaks sorta person so my knowledge of the used market is marginal. But I can’t tell you the last time I paddled with someone who had sliding pegs.
Since non-lockable foot pegs was a well known downside to rudder systems weren’t they pretty much obsolete, on sea kayaks at least, a decade ago? Or did lower end kayaks continue using them? My Necky is 22 years old and has the SmartTrac system so they’ve been around a long time.
Sliding pedals are gone from Current Design hulls 20 years plus or minus. Best guess is over 20 if I was betting.
Dumb novice question, but isn’t this apples vs. oranges? It seems to me that rudders make sense on touring kayaks and skegs add versatility to sea kayaks. You can have a little more rocker if you can drop a skeg when you need to go somewhere. And skegs are needed on most inflatable kayaks to prevent them from being blown across the lake like a tube.
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Oh what a time to be alive! I take a break from the message boards and come back and somebody is trying to bring about the apocalypse with the rudder/skeg debate! Wars have been fought over less. 
Freya Hoffmeister paddled around Iceland in a ruddered boat. Her partner on that trip used a Greenland style boat w/ skeg. She said she was faster in some conditions, in others the Greenland was.
Great article can be found here: https://paddlingmag.com/stories/columns/rock-the-boat/how-important-is-a-rudder-on-a-kayak/?amp
In the end, use what makes ya happy!
Not a bad observation. It really depends on the boat design, intended purpose of the boat, skill of the paddler and whether you prefer active vs passive directional control. Some kakays like the Tsunami up through 145 can be controlled without rudder (or skeg) by a person who knows the boat and how to edge, but the 175 Tsunami is far less responsive or easy to control. Not really a question of right or wrong, unless you have a stong opinion or haven’t learned to edge a relatively straight tracking boat. Only important thing is what you prefer.
Two different hulls are Apple’s and Oranges.
Forgot but one Brit company let’s you pick rudder or skeg on some of their hulls. Then you could compare them equally.
Hey what ever you’re happiest with.
@Shadepine I have both the Tsunami 145 and 175 and the Tempest 170 and 180 Pro.
Since I do race them in touring class, I tend to benchmark each boat under ideal conditions (on a lake with no wind.) to get a feel for how fast I can push the boats both sustainably and in a racing sprint.
Now I haven’t compared the boats Rudder Vs. Skeg on same day so conditions have varied a bit since it’s pretty much impossible for zero wind conditions but I try for the 1-2 mph days.
Having said that I did a 3.4 mile loop in my Tsunami 175 (without the rudder.) and ran it at GPS indicated 5.8 mph.
Right after I hopped in the Tempest 170 (without the Skeg) and ran it at GPS indicate 5.7 mph.
Both were within my margin of error, and the numbers would have probably flip-flopped had I done the tempest first.
Now I’ve done comparisons of my Tsunami 175 with and without the rudder, and depending on conditions the speed loss due to the drag the rudder imparts is anywhere from 0.2 to 0.4 mph.
I didn’t do the same test on the Tempest 170 Skeg/no-skeg, but I did do on the Tempest 180, and there i didnt see any measurable difference with the skeg deployed or not deployed. I ran a solid 5.2 mph. and I’m chalking the slowness here up to the fact that I completely brought the wrong paddle. I thought I was grabbing my 650 Sqcm paddle, but I grabbed the wife’s 580 SqCm paddle (they look exactly the same.) and unfortunately I just haven’t had the chance to get out to run another test.
So for me using the rudder, if conditions require me to is going to cut my speed and not in a insignificant way, whereas with the skeg it didn’t seem to matter.
Why compare with no wind? The advantage of a rudder comes from dealing with the wind. With no wind, there’s no need to deploy it.
@Craig_S - That’s really interesting! I should try to do some similar tests with my Tsunami 165 (rudder up and down) and my Tempest 170 (skeg up and down). Just in looking at my tracks so far, I haven’t noticed much of a difference (maybe 0.2mph) between the Tsunami with rudder and Tempest with skeg. I guess in theory a skeg should cause some drag too, and I don’t know how much surface area a typical skeg has (when fully deployed) versus the part of a rudder that’s usually in the water.
Your numbers confirm what I’ve already decided—that I want to get a Tsunami 175. Because higher capacity (I think at 400lbs v. 350lbs with the 165) and faster (with an extra foot of length). Alas, Tsunami 175’s seem tough to find on the used boat market…
With no wind you shouldn’t need a rudder or a skeg. To arrive at meaningful figures you would need to compare the rudder vs skeg with a variety of crosswinds at various speeds and directions with the rudder or skeg set to exactly counteract the effects of the crosswind.
Unless you use a motor at a set output, you will introduce human error no matter how much you try to maintain a consistent power output, especially within ± 0.1 mph.
You’re corrrect and 90% of the time I need neither.
however I race, and for doing I blueprint the capabilities of each boat I have. How fast without rudder or skeg, how fast with rudder or skeg and I do under ideal conditions so I can know on any given day how fast I should be able to push the boat and what effect any change deploying the rudder or the skeg is going to make.
for some of the races I run where the turn is 180 Deg, in those instances edging, alone isn’t going to cut it so there you need the edge and full rudder, and for that (and I’ve measured that.) the speed drop is .5 mph, so the faster I can make the turn, and then pull the rudder up then the faster I’m back to speed.
same goes for the times your out for the 10% of the time I need the rudder due to conditions or the skeg, then I know how much I’m goign to have to push myself to maintain speed, risking burnout, then it becomes a game of reading the conditions to find the spot that might be in the lee side of something, or surf the waves to reduce the effort I need to maintain so that burnout doesn’t happen prematurely.
as for human error, it’s quite possible there may be some but in the past few years of racing I’ve run a pretty consistent 5.8 mph over a 3.2 mile course, and a pretty consistent 5 mph over both 10 and 15 mile courses.
So yes I’d say human error does play a part stroke to stroke but when you’re talking about averages if you are aware and focused on how your body performs and with a long enough sample set (until fatigue becomes a factor.) the averaging seems to cancel it out.
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100% of my kayaking has been out in the ocean and after mid morning the wind comes up and it is always a cross wind. I used a friend’s Ocean sit on top kayak and found that I was using only half my body to deal with the cross wind that was pushing the bow and the boat off course. I could tack and need to paddle 50% further or I would put most of my energy into keeping the boat on track by paddling only on the leeward side of the kayak. In a wetsuit this was exhausting.
My first kayak purchase was a Necky sit on top with an excellent rudder system and it was much better when dealing with cross winds. I could paddle much faster with the use of both sides of my body.
If I was in small lakes or ponds or small rivers then the rudder would be much less of a factor. But in large open water a rudder is a big help and it makes no sense not to have a kayak that is equipped with one.
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I see the merit of many of the different comments here. I have no intention of getting into this discussion any farther than what’s the case for this one very specific remark which can be dealt with via a definite set of physical principles.
While it is true that “the drag created by a rudder blade set at a given angle will be very close to the drag created by vertically sticking a flat paddle (with the same surface area as the rudder blade) in the water at the same given angle”, that statement misses a very important point, one which negates the relevance of that comparison. That point is that the necessary amount of “sideways force” to either steer OR correct for wind or paddles strokes, is much less when the location of application of that force is the longest practical distance behind the pivot point of the boat, and that’s because of the increased leverage by which that sideways force affects the heading of the boat when applied at such a location. The pivot point is roughly centered between front and rear (and right now there’s nothing to be gained by discussing the way that point shifts forward with increasing speed, so let’s leave that part out). “Sticking a paddle blade in the water” and dragging it at a slight angle to create this sideways force cannot be done nearly as far behind the pivot point as what the case is with a rudder, and therefore, a greater sideways force would need to be applied if making that correctiokn with a paddle blade.
And that’s the part that’s important. Since a sideways force applied at the tail end of a boat benefits from greater leverage and therefore that force does not need to be as great to get the job done as is the case if it’s farther forward (closer to the center), the degree to which the blade (rudder blade, in this case) needs to be angled away-from-center is less. And less of an angle relative to the direction of travel results in less drag. And thus, the “same angle” comparison does not apply.
If you were to mount a rudder on the end of a long boom that extends out beyond the rear of the boat, that rudder could correct for paddles strokes or wind effects with an even greater leverage advantage, so even less off-center angle would be needed and there would be even less drag. Other factors would surely make this impractical most of the time, but “it’s the principle of the thing” that would be illustrated.
I mentioned that the other comments I’ve seen all seem to have merit, and I’m not addressing anything here other than the issue of drag when comparing rudders or rudder-like use of a paddle blade. On that note, it’s worth noting that “less drag” may not be the goal anyway. Correction applied closer to the center of the boat will have the capability to provide much faster reaction speed, and I’m sure various other complicating factors could be mentioned. It all comes back to “every boat is a compromise”, just as every paddling style is a compromise, which is why, when describing this particular aspect of drag, I’m not addressing the actual merits of anything at all!
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Very well stated. I agree with all you have said. That “less drag may not be the goal anyway” is especially important to remember. My admittedly simplistic post ignores the complicating factors that differentiate one set of circumstances from another, including the position of the paddle and/or rudder relative to the pivot point (a big deal, for sure). My only point is that the creation of lateral motion, whether with a paddle blade or a rudder, (regardless of position) comes at the expense of forward motion. Whether or not the trade-off is significant is another matter. In real world situations, I expect that losing a bit of forward motion is less important than the need or desire to execute a good turn.
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Much depends on technique. For example, I modified the back half of my low angle stroke to eliminate the sweep phase. Instead, I depart outward, but if I need to correct tracking, I continue the sweep on the appropriate side without breaking the paddling rythem. I also use the paddling energy to induce edging, and all I do is hold the edge by shifting my lower body. While some might scoff at a high cadence, it allows the opportunity to make mico corrections at the rate of 36 to 40 times a second on each side. A cadence of 40 spm reduces your ability to exert control, because the opportunity to exert control is cut by half, while I’ve already transitioned the power to the other side. My rate of yaw is essentially cut in half. If you yaw paddling low angle, I can explain why. When someone schools me about the pitfalls of low angle, they’ve telegraphed their paddling technique. Controlling a kayak doesn’t have to require so much effort. If you wantbtonuse a rudder or skeg, use it.
Watch the videos from Paulo, Dancing with the Sea. His technique is effortless. His rolls are effortless. You don’t have adopt his style, but it helps you to understand that paddling a kayak doesn’t have to be a struggle. It doesn’t have to rely on a specific boat, paddle, or technique. It should encourage you to get in tune with your boat and paddle. Rather than mimicking my suggestions, all you have to do is understand the concepts, adapt what you find beneficial. If you view Paulo’s catch, you’ll notice it’s splashless. If you manage that, you can reduce a miniscule amount of stress from your power cycle. Keeping your paddle face perpendicular to the water and figuring out how to mimimize slippage increases speed. Remaining in your power range rather than stretching and over exerting will save energy resources for later in the trip. Use it in the last 30 minutes with all out effort. If you bonk, you can still limp in for the last half mile, but that anerobic effort improves the ability of your muscles to store energy and process oxygen. Life gets easier with each trip.
I’m not going to disagree with your theory on this as playing it back in my head seems sound.
what I will do is give you some data, since I do race yearly, I track minutia of details about everything going into how a boat performs for me.
So what I found because I don’t want this to become a novella.
My WS Tsunami running a straight line on a lake no with no wind I can push the boat to 5.8 MPH over 3 miles that’s my straight line speed without deploying the rudder. If I deploy the rudder No correction L/R completely straight my speed will drop to 5.3 MPH. Indicating that the rudder causes that boat to lose .5 MPH just being deployed, and even more so if using it to turn.
The WS tempest 180 pro I’ve pushed to 6.3 mph, again on a lake no wind, over 2.5 miles. Deploying the Skeg made no registered speed difference on that boat. She ran 6.3 either way. This confused me as it should make some difference so much so that I put the boat in suspension sling just to make sure the skeg was deploying. It was. I also checked the spring tension to make sure there was enough that the water wasn’t pushing the skeg back up. SO I can only assume that it does affect speeds but so insignificantly that my GPS couldn’t measure it.
That the hard data I have, and only on those boats. Rudder design would play into it, there are some boats that have a more hydro-dynamic rudder design that would produce less drag than the WS factory rudder. So your mileage might vary on this.
But from my testing, in the boats I have a rudder produces much more drag than a skeg an measurable amount of drag.
that’s about all I can add to the topic of rudder vs. skeg. for the intended purpose of keeping the boat straight in wind. The skeg keeps me going straight, and up to about 30 mph, it seems I only really need 50% skeg most of the time. The rudder also keeps me going straight however I have to induce more drag by turning the rudder to keep the boat on course.
A comparison in windy conditions is really not possible as both boats behave wildly differently in the wind In testing the Tsunami vs Tempest (without rudder or skeg.) The Tsunami is less effected by conditions than the Tempest is up to about 20 mph wind (which is what I can do in either boat without deploying skeg or rudder.) the Tempest loses about 1 mph. compared to the Tsunami which loses about 0.2 mph again this is without rudder or skeg being deployed. Beyond that I need to deploy in either boat the rudder or the skeg to stay on course.
This discrepancy I can only chalk up to Hard Chine Vs. Soft and is more probably to do with the waves kicked up by the wind. Neither boat seems to have issue into or with losing almost no speed. either way (actually both gain with as surfing becomes a thing.) it comes into play cross wind and progressively gets worse in the Tempest as the windblown waves reach 90 degrees to the direction of travel.
Both boats are roughly the same dimensions 24" beam Tempest 18 ft, Tsunami 17 ft 8 inch.
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