Hoping for the best
Yep, hopefully someone will pick up the business.
The more good options out there for us the better. I’ve had great luck with their paddles. I’m talking 25 years of service – not always with the gentlest of folk either. They’ve had lots of use by kids and the kind of galoots I fish with.
The Oddy and Solo 14 both look good to me. Seeing Paddlupe load her Solo 14 with tripping gear and a 65 pound dog and paddle it through and around dozens of strainers for a couple of days made a believer out of me. For some reason I didn’t remember to ask to test paddle it but I looked it over well.
the boats were ok, but…
– Last Updated: Jan-15-06 10:26 PM EST –
...there was a perception of them being, perhaps, a slightly better value than they really were. With no dealers, buyers were essentially buying Royalex boats at a wholesale price. The boats didn't have to be killer as long as they were that much cheaper. If they'd been priced at $1000-1200 rather than $700-900, some of the romance would have died off quickly. The only reason WHY they were cheaper was because of the factory direct element (always had to laugh when I saw them using the 'suggested retail' bit on their website; when you don't sell to retailers, how can there be an MSRP?)
The canoe business isn't what it once was. Numbers are flat at best, and most new paddlers are going for kayaks instead. In all honesty, I'm not sure what possible value the Mohawk line would have to any established maker like Wenonah, et al. Wenonah has their own very successful line of boats and an excellent history in the competitive and tripping ends of the market (can't remember the last time I saw a Mohawk up around Ely...;-). In addition, they have dozens of dealers to sell and service their boats, which gives them hundreds of experienced paddlers/retailers to talk about their product.
Mohawk was cheaper because they did it direct, but that same approach may have served to stifle the brand's growth within a very tight market.
Odyssey versus Vagabond
Now you get to see how long-winded I can be when describing how boats handle (a few people who’ve e-mailed questions to me off the board already know this). Let me preface this comparison with something that I’ve discussed on this board a couple of times. My Royalex Vagabond has almost zero rocker, when it is supposed to have 1.25 inches at both the front and back (actual rocker is about 1/8 of an inch - I measured it after I became suspicious that the boat had a whole lot less rocker than specified in Wenonah literature). Since the Vagabond is also one-half foot shorter than specified (making it exactly the same length as the Odyssey 14), I believe the rocker was lost during shrinkage after being taken off the mold, shrinkage which was either not controlled or not taken into consideration during the design. There’s another person on P-Net (I can’t recall the name) who’s Royalex Vagabond has about one inch of rocker, so it’s clear that different examples of this boat can behave very differently from each other.
Let me further preface this with the comment that the Odyssey 14 and the Odyssey 15 are rather different boats, so I suggest that no one extrapolate my comments about the Odyssey 14 to what might be expected from the Odyssey 15.
The Vagabond feels a little faster (though I haven’t verified this), which makes sense since it has a sharper taper at each end, and it has no rocker to speak of. The Vagabond has lower sides than the Odyssey, but I haven’t noticed that it handles any better in the wind because of that. Last time I was out in a brisk wind, I noticed that when underway with a cross wind of some kind, the Vagabond veered into the wind instead of downwind (I’m not saying that’s better or worse than veering downwind), and I think it was harder to compensate for this action than the veering of the Odyssey 14. I’ll have to pay more attention to this in the future, but I found that it was best to paddle on the upwind side of the boat at all times. When the Odyssey is hit by crosswinds, it works best if you paddle on the downwind side of the boat if the wind crosses from the front quarter, and on the upwind side of the boat if the wind crosses from the rear quarter, and the Odyssey seems a bit more predictable and controllable in cross winds. Like I say, I need to look into this some more, and I don’t have this aspect totally figured out. This difference between how the two boats handle in cross winds might be due to the farther-forward seating position of the Vagabond, though it seems that the lower stern (relative to the bow) would counteract that to some extent.
The Odyssey 14 excels at precision maneuvering in small creeks and light rapids, while the Vagabond becomes a real dog in those situations. I take great delight in slipping the Odyssey in and around complex deadfall patterns on some of our little creeks, using whatever combination of standard steering, pivots, and side-slips that get the job done. Doing these maneuvers and combinations of these maneuvers is a joy with the Odyssey, and sheer drudgery with the Vagabond. Like I said earlier, I think the Vagabond makes up for this in straight-line travel, but the difference is not very great in comparison to the huge difference there is between the two boats when it comes to precision maneuvers. Once last summer I was on a group outing on a very tiny creek, and an older, very experienced paddler in the group exclaimed “nicely done” as I rounded a bend which had some very “awkwardly placed” deadfall obstacles. That never would have happened if I had been paddling the Vagabond.
Because of the Vagabond’s lower sides and sharper taper up front, it tends to cut into waves (either lake waves or in light rapids) so that water comes over the front. The same size waves do not come over the sides of the Odyssey.
I often get the feeling that the Vagabond slips sideways a little bit in responce to a J-stroke when I don’t want it to, but I never get that feeling from the Odyssey. I can’t say whether that’s actually happening, or whether it’s good or bad for either boat, but I find the Odyssey to “feel” more controlled in this case. I might add that the Odyssey side-slips very nicely when I want it to.
The Odyssey will eddy-out behind a snag or rock as nicely as you please, within the limits of its general-purpose design. The Vagabond will eddy-out in the same circumstances, but it takes quite a bit more “horseing” to make it happen.
I like both boats, and both are meant to be general-purpose, jack-of-all-trades designs. However, the Vagabond does general tasks reasonably well but excels at nothing, while the Odyssey really does all the same things about as well, while it really does excel at precision control, as long as you accept the fact that it isn’t really meant to swivel and pivot as easily as more heavily-rockered designs.
If I ever buy any more canoes, the next one would probably be more of an efficient cruising design. If I get such a canoe, I think I’d ditch the Vagabond, since cruising is what it does a little better than the Odyssey. I am very confident that I won’t ever part with the Odyssey 14.
Mohawks in Ely…
– Last Updated: Jan-15-06 11:12 PM EST –
I've never been in Ely; so I have no ideas how many Mohawk canoes are seen there.
I have paddled whitewater In North Carolina, Wisconsin, Tennessee, Missouri, Arkansas, and Georgia. Never saw anybody paddling a Wenonah canoe.
Did see a lot of Mohawks, Daggers, Mad Rivers, and a few Blue Holes, and Whitesells.
I don't believe Mohawk ever had any intention of turning their Florida based company into a mecca for boundary water canoers.
What 7 boats does Wenonah have that would compete with Mohawk's Shaman, Viper12, Probe 11, Probe 12, Probe 12II, XL 12 and XL13 on whitewater?
Perhaps the Sandpiper, Vagabond, Solo Plus, Rendezvous, and Argosy? I don't think so......
The Minnesota 3, and the Sundowner?
NOT!
Comparing Wenonah to Mohawk is about like comparing canoes to kayaks.
BOB
Their virtually indestructable paddles
have been one of the better paddle values on the market. For downriver rock bashers, they are ideal.
The plastic composite blades can be trimmed with a saw to any shape to suit the paddler. I made a nice beaver tail from of one of them, and I still use it occasionally. It transmits a feeling of strength, probably from the low flex of the aluminum shaft.
P.S.
As late as this 3:30 p.m. this afternoon, I was paddling class 2+ and class 3 whitewater in Missouri.
Some of the open boats I saw were the Detonator, Ocoee, Caption, Outrage, Impulse, and Rival. I was in my Probe 12 II.
I didn’t see any Wenonahs…
BOB
Which is exactly why
Wenonah should buy Mohawk.
The Mohawk whitewater boats fill a niche that Wenonah has neglected.
I for one would be thrilled if Wenonah started making Probes, Vipers, Odyseys and Solos.
It would be great if they picked up the outfitting and paddles too.
Tommy
Good points
Thanks for the response to my questions on the differences between Odyssey and Vagabond. I am really looking for a cruising canoe and paddle larger lakes and bays mostly with some twisty mangrove creeks. I haven’t had problem negotiating any of these so far with the Vagabond. Also haven’t measured rocker as you have and will…I’ll still see if I can get a used Odyssey if Mohawk doesn’t have any in stock.
Vagabond rocker
Nice write up. I thought I might add that I read somewhere that the Vagabond achieves its stated rocker through seating position. Whereas the weight of the paddler brings up the stem to achieve rocker. Therefore measuring rocker on this boat could be somewhat difficult.
The Last Odyssey
I ordered the last 14’ Odyssey Mohawk had for sale this past Monday. It’s an R-84 boat. They still have paddles, bags, & other accessories for sale and a few WW boats as well. I’m not sure which one(s) exactly, but I do know they had one XL-11 left as of Monday. I’m too big for an XL-11 or I’d have bought it too.
Ordered a new rock basher
Well maybe not a rock basher all the time, but the new 9 inch wide 54 inch long paddle I got is definately the greatest white water paddle I’ve had.
I’ve broken a lot of other brands of paddles but my older Mohawk paddles are still around and I don’t even remember how Old they are. Carlise and others make similar looking paddles that aren’t as comfortable and that don’t last more than a year or two.
Wood paddles are nice for a pond or a lake. But near any rough stuff or rocky shores I want a Mohawk
Wenonah rocker is “normal” rocker
I don’t think Wenonah defines rocker that way, especially since the rocker on this boat is supposed to be symetrical. If you sight along the bottom of a composite Vagabond, the rocker is obvious and easy to see, and it when I do that, the 1.25-inch rocker specification looks very believable. I can’t actually see any rocker at all on my Royalex Vagabond (I measured it by stretching a very tight string along the bottom). Composite boats are pretty much exactly the same shape as the mold they come from (ignoring changes you can make by adjusting thwart lenghts), but Royalex shrinks after molding. I think it was Arkay who suggested not long ago that due to the tremendous cost of making a new mold, Wenonah may be using the same mold (or perhaps a duplicate, which would be cheaper to make than an original), for Royalex boats as for composite boats, but because of shrinkage, it seems unlikely that this would allow construction of Royalex boats which actually meet specs.
BITE YOUR TONGUE TOMMY!!!
We-NO-Nah should not buy Mohawk!!!
Someone that will keep it Mohawk SHOULD!!!
:^)
Mick
YOUR fault I did not get my Odyssey!
– Last Updated: Jan-20-06 8:43 PM EST –
Tried Tuesday. :^(
Got the Intrepid 16 instead.
And of course the Probe 12 I have always wanted.
Then a little Solo 13, as there were no 14s.
And the last XL13, Very pink XL13.
I thing Pink one ups your Purple Bob.
Oh, yeah I did get to pick the boats up right from Mohawk. Very neat place with the personal tour and histor!!! Lucky enough to have gone with someones with connections!
Sorry the trip was so tight we could not stop over Zoe. I promise we will make a paddle with your group next time.
>:^)
Mick
Yup
I agree with you Tommy…I’d LOVE to see Wenonah pick up Mohawk. Would be a great addition to what they already have.
My gut feeling is that it will happen…
Pink boat…
– Last Updated: Jan-20-06 11:51 PM EST –
Wow Mick! You have to be a real man to weather the storm of stones & arrows that may be directed towards a pink canoe! I didn't even know that Mohawk made pink boats.
Seems like I do remember an old Dagger whitewater boat that was pink, or maybe UV rays had just washed out the original red color. Can't remember what model it was.
It is hard enough to miss my purple Probe 12 II with purple airbags, but PINK! I ain't that brave.
BOB
Cute little Pink XL13 w/ Teal air bags.
– Last Updated: Jan-23-06 12:23 AM EST –
The guy I left it with was having a problem with the girly color scheme until I said "Well then, I guess you do not want to keep it for a bit to paddle." All of a sudden Pink and Teal seemed to be almost his favorite colors. ;^)
See, I told you guys many of my boats were out there somewhere in the world doing good (or bad?).
Just returned home to VA. That was a long, fast trip!!! Left VA a week ago. Been to FL, MI, and every state inbetween the points of the triangle.
>:^)
Mick