Your point about civility is well made JCH, and I’ve addressed that in my comments elsewhere on this thread. However, I disagree about anti-safety trolls.
Our organization is very active on social media and there’s plenty of anti-safety trolling to be found there. Sometimes it’s blatant and sometimes more subtle, but regardless, all of it undermines the safety culture in our sport and often makes safety advocacy a very unpleasant task. Terms like fearmonger, grandstanding, etc., are the gentler pejoratives used by trolls.
In this post, attacking the video for its approach rather than addressing the substantive issue of corporate irresponsibility is a perfect example. Straw horses like focusing on a critique of my use of the term “carnage” is another. You simply don’t find those sorts of distracting objections being made by safety advocates or supporters. This video has received a lot of internet attention, and with the exception of a handful of trolls, it has been very well received by the community.
Fatalities are hard to manipulate unless, like you, one cherry-picks the data. In this case, focusing on whitewater deaths. The USCG recorded 137 paddlesports deaths in 2020, AW’s database, by your count reports 11-14 annual deaths. But nevertheless, you single that out in your continued attempts to discredit the video - even going further to say something nasty like “liars always figure”. That kind of behavior is precisely why I take you for an anti-safety troll. You can claim that you’re pro-safety all day long, but your actions prove otherwise. I’ve repeatedly asked you to spell out what, if anything, you’ve done over the past decade or two to promote safety and your response has been Crickets.
I never addressed the video. I have no problem with the video, if I did I would have said so. I have been very clear, my disagreement is surrounding regulations and response to them. If you review the thread, I initially responded to your post about regulations not the video.
I did not cherry pick data. Those 137 deaths are nationwide, 7-14 number is paddle sports (not just whitewater) fatalities in Washington. I’m surprised you hadn’t seen the letter I quoted since it was written by the AWA in opposition to Washington paddle sports legislation.
You misunderstand my post and a reference to an old saying that is agreeing with @steevey (who I replyed to) saying that “numbers can be played with”. It had nothing to do with you or your video.
I have not seen a single question from you. Anyway, you’ve already assumed what I haven’t done. Although, I will freely admit that you are doing and have done more than I have, well done. However, that doesn’t mean I owe you complete agreement on everything you say and do nor that I am “anti-safety”. Who would be against safety? What does anti-safety mean?
Anti-safety sounds like many terms used in today’s societal discourse to squash disagreement and impose “correct” thought and speech.
My concern is the USCG definition of an accident related to paddlecraft:
Incidents that resulted in at least one of the following criteria: death, disappearance, injury that required medical treatment beyond first aid, damages to the vessel(s) or other property that equaled or exceeded $2,000, or a loss of vessel.
Lets look at each
Death - ok, should be included!
Disappearance - not clear what this means if not death? Unrecovered body?
Injury require med aid - probably broken bones, head injuries, hypothermia
Damages greater than $2000 - hard to meet this criteria in a kayak or SUP
Loss of vessel - who would self report this?
To me Death is the most likely of the various above criteria that would be met and documented by public officials for a paddlecraft, and to me it is reasonable that fatalities would therefore make up over 50% of the “accidents” for paddlecraft. It has NOTHING to do with likehood of dying using a paddlecraft.
I apologize for misunderstanding your state vs national context. I used the term carnage in a colloquial sense. It’s how I view all these close calls and fatalities. It feels like carnage to me personally when I’m reading accounts of hundreds of incidents. But I get that you don’t like my use of that term in the context of paddlesports. OK, I hear you, and I’ll rethink my use of the term.
My main points were that regulations are not driven by responsible, safety-conscious behavior and that the safety culture in our sport is worthy of support rather then being undermined. Seems like we should be able to agree on something like that.
And you’re right, you didn’t say anything about the video itself - something that I found odd and that influenced my perception of you. People who disagree with some aspect of this discussion usually preface their remarks with a statement that they aren’t speaking about the video. I appreciate that clarity because it’s easy to misunderstand one another in social media interactions.
As I’ve said on many occasions, perhaps this would all have been resolved in a couple of minutes if we were discussing this issue over beers n burgers at our favorite local pub.
Yeah, I figure I should buy the first couple of rounds. OK, and your burger. I’m in Vancouver, WA. Plenty of opportunities for an amicable lunch if you happen to be in the area.
Yeow. Not surprisingly, after not following this thread in the last couple of days, I see that the more thoughtful posts now share company with, er, more impulsive ones.
While I don’t like nannyism, it is hard to stomach a company that so flagrantly only promotes Image and Sales. 100% of paddlers always erring on the side of caution and good sense will never happen, for the simple reason that some people really have no common sense. At the same time, promoting dangerous combinations of carelessness to either the no-common-sense people OR to those who “trust” corporations’ integrity needs to be exposed for what it is: shameless greed.
For my tiny part, I’m not willing to approach someone to rain on their parade UNLESS the situation does look dangerous, But any time someone asks me what I think of Oru, I’m gonna let loose with both barrels!
I just purchased a used CD Slipstream (not made anymore). It happened to come with the original Owner’s Manual. The first section is entitled “Safety” and starts with “Kayaking can be a high risk sport and, while it is very easy to simply paddle a touring kayak, there are a lot of pitfalls and dangers waiting for the unwary kayaker”. The section then goes on with 3 paragraphs about such topics as reentry after capsize, the effects of cold water, virtues of taking an intial kayaking course etc.
What kind of kayaking manufacturer actually WANTS their clients to die? I’m really wondering about the person(s) who designed this kayak. Apparently they don’t do much kayaking….
I don’t get the appeal, but I’m not the target demographic. These things remind me of the white USPS bulk mail bins that you see at the post office; the ones that look a bit like a milk crate. It’s like Oru took that material and said “I wonder if we can fold this stuff into the shape of a boat?”
I have only skimmed through the comments here. I will read this more carefully.
Living in the PNW I have seen many people using these Oru kayaks. I have watched people unload and set them up without really thinking about it too much.
A few months ago I was sitting on the rocks northeast of Doe Bay on Orcas Island. Along came a big guy in an Oru, paddling alone while heading up this remote side of Orcas. Immediately my brain rang the “that don’t look right” bell.
Cheap plastic paddle, obvious beginner technique, bit of a struggle even while padding with the current, cotton shirt, no spare paddle, no floatation, etc. At least he had a PFD. This is very cold water.
I just recall tensing up while looking at this guy. And now reading this thread just highlights the danger…
The company line is that safety is one of their “core values”. Yet they seem to know little about safety and their ads undermine it. Their response to criticism is to either ignore it or lie about the issue. Judge them on their advertising and what they’ve done since this video was released. This is not the response of a company that cares about safety.
If our community wants to do something collectively to foster safe paddling, we could organize petitions asking manufacturers and retailers to correct advertising materials that illustrate or describe paddling practices that are known to be dangerous. We could post announcements about the notices on this forum. Interested members could go to the petition site to endorse it. This would require considerably less up-front effort than Avery went to for his presentation on Oru Kayaks, and it would have the advantage coming from a substantial number of people who are potential customers of the company’s products. In addition, each posting on this forum about a new petition would serve to inform the larger number of forum readers. Obviously, many details would have to be work out. I am not willing to take the lead for such an effort, but I would be willing to help.
Since what we’re really talking about is the safety culture in our sport, the more we complain about these kinds of ads to manufacturers and retailers - and Facebook paddling group Admins - the better.
