THERE IS NO ETAIN HV
The larger model is called the 17-7.
Poly : Composite
Hi WaterMark,
Sorry for the delay.
I didn’t do any speed tests between the two layups. The behavior of the poly was very comparable to the FG version for it’s stability range and overall handling. The poly was a tad slower to initiate and accelerate as it was definitely NOT a light kayak. Didn’t weigh it but when carrying it the weight was noticeable.
See you on the water,
Marshall
The River Connection, Inc.
Hyde Park, NY
www.the-river-connection.com
again it’s relative and Valley’s naming
methodology is highly confusing at best.
The Aquanaut LV (composite model) has considerably less volume in the cockpit than the ‘standard’ Aquanaut (composite).
But, the Aquanaut LV RM (poly) has a much higher volume cockpit that the Valley’s corresponding composite LV model.
What is truly ironic is that Valley’s Avocet RM is just the opposite. It has less cockpit volume than the composite model.
I am not sure why? It’s counter-intuitive. One would have to ask Valley for their logic in regard to naming boats.
Yes, yes, yes.
The bottom of my AvocetLV is getting a little too scratched for my taste from paddling in rocks. A true, LV would save its gel coat, sacrificial or not:).
And I also know a number of small paddlers who would benefit from a RM version of a true LV boat.
I agree with you
– Last Updated: Sep-21-11 1:43 PM EST –
I love Valley boats. I'd like to own one someday. But IMO when what you say happens happens, the marketing has gone overboard.
People need simple meaningful terms and clear distinctions. What is the purpose of the 17-5 vs the 17-7? Nothing in the website literature tell me the answer. I've never understood the marketing thought process that ignores this.
All I want…
(and a number of my smaller friends want) is a damn boat that fits.
The AvocetLV is a low volumn boat at 15’11" and 20.5", with a cockpit depth of 11.5". I recently did a class with a coach I’ve worked with for more than a few years and who has seen me go from an ExplorerLV to a RomanyLV to the AvocetLV. His comments? “Finally, you are in a boat that fits you and works with you.” The only other boat that I would paddle would be a SKUK Pilgrim, in the 16’ version because it, again, is low volumn and not a cut down version of a larger boat with LV stuck on the end of the name.
As for HV vs LV vs WHATEVER “name” VCP comes out with: Slushpaddler is right, the local NE VCP rep calls the two Etains presently on the market by the length, which is 17’6" and 17’3". The potentially “true” low volumn Etain therefore, might be something under 17’3", or so logic dictates.
But who says logic has any say in this? I was told the CD Slipstream, my first boat, would be great for me as it was considered “low volumn”, which it wasn’t; it was a barge and a royal pain in the butt. The first true “low volumn” kayak I had was a P&H Vela. However, perhaps because of the egg shaped cockpit, it just never fit me right, whereas NDK/SKUK and VCP boats always have, probably because the cockpit is more of a keyhole. I also am very fond of ocean cockpits, mainly because I fit. Chalk that up to the shape of my body, I guess.
Shouldn’t it ultimately be a matter of what fits the individual and works with and for them rather than how the boat is marketed or what a friend or dealer says someone “should” be paddling?
hear hear (but do ya really? do ya?)
– Last Updated: Sep-21-11 3:23 PM EST –
You made me crack a smile when you mentioned the Slipstream. I'm still not sure who that boat is made for (partly kidding here).
From my perspective, and to use a hastily devised analogy, what I see that's happened in sea kayak evolution makes me want to compare to automobile evolution. What did large families drove before the minivan? The fullsize SUV. Vehicles that originated from four-wheel-drive light truck design, and first had application when gas was dirt cheap. It wasn't the ideal tool for the job but it was the best available. Then came the minivan, and the market was changed forever.
The sea kayaks I see manufacturers like Valley producing harken back to expedition boats. Most of them are still expedition boats. But unlike when they orginated, most people no longer use them for expeditions or even overnight trips, but for day paddles. Why? I have no idea. I'm guessing that people don't understand how a true low volume day or overnite tripping sea kayak could make their paddling more enjoyable.
I know this isn't just my opinion. But none of the major manufacturers seems to place much emphasis at all on true low volume boats. And there will only be a market for them once someone opens the door with a new model fitting the bill. Meanwhile, releasing "LV" kayaks that are distinguished without much difference gives people the wrong impression of what a true LV kayak is and the benefits compared to expedition boats.
I remember reading a discussion here once about ocean playboats with planing hulls, and a prototype that had been developed. After this much time paddling, and on this website i'm convinced that such a true LV kayak will come from a new startup such as this one, perhaps along with some other innovative measures that fly in the face of the current "conventional wisdom".
Sparrow Hawk
I agree about the whole LV thing and suggesting folks not drag expedition boats around on day trips. However, once upon a time relatively low volume boats were available. So its not like it a new idea. For example I found an old WS Sparrow Hawk and at 5’ 10" and 185# it is, for me, about the right size for a day or a long weekend, at least, boat. FG, nicely built, I have wacked it on rocks a few times without more than scratches so seems tough enough, handles well, and weighs 42#. Where is a contemporary boat with that combination of features?
Seems until the recent spate of new designs things were frozen in time for a decade or so.
not a bad example
…and on my list to paddle!
I also think of smaller manufacturers like Betsie Bay and the Aral and Idun. But I see little among the major manufacturers.
Valley for their logic
Chronology…legacy
In the case of the Avocet, the poly boat preceded the composite. When the composite boat was created all Valley composite keyhole coamings were the same size, hence the size of the cockpit opening on the composite boat is the same as all Valley composite boats of that era.
The Aquanaut sizings are more complex. The first boat in the line was the Argonaut (now Aquanaut HV) which was to be for ‘average’ size paddlers. The Aquanaut followed for ‘smaller’ paddlers. Most of us ‘average’ size paddlers found the Argonaut too big and the Aquanaut just right. So, the Argonaut was renamed Aquanaut HV. The composite Aquanaut LV followed. The poly boat now named Aquanaut LV, was the first poly Aquanaut and was intended for average size paddlers. When Valley produced a higher volume poly Aquanaut the original poly boat was renamed Aquanaut LV.
My guess is that the cost of development and retooling is so high that there is a certain lag in actually adjusting existing or creating molds etc…
In most cases with Valley LV means lower volume. In some cases, such as the Avocet LV, it also does mean low volume. The Nordkapp LV is an interesting mix. At midships it is nearly identical to a full size Nordkapp. However a lot of volume has been taken out of the stem and stern to make the Nordlow. So, the hull is much lower volume than a standard 'kapp, but the cockpit of the Nordlow is about the same size. Hence it makes a great day/play boat for average size paddlers. The hull is probably a good size as an expedition boat for smaller paddlers, though they might have issues with fit.
Vela
The Vela was specifically created for the smaller paddler. It was intended to provide smaller (read; women and smaller men)a fully capable boat that would allow such folk to keep up with larger folks in longer boats. It does that admirably.
Cockpit fit is another matter. I could fit in and paddled Celia’s Vela before she outfitted the cockpit to fit her.
Peter Orton, now head of Valley, developed the Vela when he was at P&H. Peter noted here that the Avocet LV was the first boat he designed that he could not comfortably fit into to put through its paces.
thanks for making my point
– Last Updated: Sep-21-11 6:27 PM EST –
As I said I love Valley kayaks. And I know people don't like to read criticism of their favorite brands. But your last paragraph says it all (low volume, sort of low volume, lowER volume, etc.)
Name one truly low volume kayak made by either Valley or NDK.
When I think "low volume" I think "day boat" - not "for small people".
Pilgrim? - Avocet LV?
– Last Updated: Sep-21-11 8:50 PM EST –
Each of these is notably lower volume than their related full size day boats (Romany & Avocet). I've paddled an Avocet LV and sank it a bit beyond the seam. I haven't paddled a Pilgrim, but understand that it also is actually low volume.
All volume is relative, but for production boats, might these qualify as truly low volume?
There are day boats aplenty for 'average size' paddlers. Most I know think of a boat designated as low volume as one whose volume is lower than average for its intended use. So Valley's main day boat the Avocet is pretty common volume boat as a day boat and the Avocet LV is less volume than that.
In my previous post I was simply trying to explain the Valley nomenclature, not necessarily justify it...
size and fit
i don`t really understand the LV,HV,MV designations in relations to amount of storage space.
primary concern when shopping for a boat is whether it fits you or not. i was wrong but i always thought that LV is for petite person or your marathon runner body type. MV was for regular sized person who hasnt yet cracked the obesity mark. LV is for fat bastards like me or truly large and muscular men.
that is what in simple terms made some sense to me but i was mistaken.
in my ideal world
a} boat cockpit fit would have sizes like shoe sizes {or LV,MV,HV}
b} a number for the amount of liters or sq feet of storage space in the boat
c} length and width
not quite
Fit is one of the characteristics, and it can be fine tuned to a degree.
But no foam inside the boat will change how the boat sits in the water.
An expedition class boat - say Etain, since the original thread is about it, will be a horrible day boat for average sized person even though one changes out cockpit for proper fit.
Folks on this board are SK oriented, a topic like this would not float on anything dealing with WW, especially playboating. Manufacturers understand that since they want to sell boats - take a look at spec sheet for Jackson Rockstar http://jacksonkayak.com/jk-kayaks/whitewater/rockstar/specs/ . There is no fixed weight recommendation for a given hull, ranges describe what the hull is expected to be good at.
At 150x5.9 I fit PH Delphin 155 quite well - Pyranha designed cockpit virtually guarantees it. But I will never be able to get the most out of the hull - designed weight is over 200lb. I just can’t get enough of that boat in the water at my weight.
agreed
I agree. The first step is to get correct information to know which boat I want to demo.
Second step is the most important step. Go to a dealer and actually demo the boat.
Slush you need to look into a Perception
Avatar. It’s kinda low volume and makes you feel like a U-boat commander any time the waves get over a foot tall.
Varney here’s the big question
What are you looking for in a kayak?
Speed, maneuverability, durabilty, weight?
What has you looking at either of those sea kayaks? And what are you paddling currently?
Buy the one that gives you a hard-on.