Nice post, Peter
You summed up the issues well without being overly biased. Perhaps you have an alternative career as a tightrope walker. 
I’ll consider it
I’ll consider that if I ever fancy a career change!
I was speaking
with a friend who has been in the bicycle retailing business since the early '70s. He has watched manufacturing move from Europe to the US to Japan to Tiawan to China. He feels that the next move will be to India and Vietnam. Manufacturing seeks out low-cost labor, and the third world has lots of that. I suppose the next move after Vietnam will be to the aboriginal peoples of the rainforest.
Jim
Thailand is hot now
We call this “following the sun” when a company shifts operations to lower cost sources.
China
What is wrong with China? Do you know they have electricity and water distribution now? They are producing their own cars now? I live in Boston, when I go by MIT it is almost all Chinese. I work in biotech- again alot of Chinese. Do you truly believe Chinese people cannot make a FG kayak? Is quality a company issue or Chinese people dont have enough brains? Shoddy workmanship is not endemic to Asia. Is it?
Vin
Sorry
– Last Updated: Sep-23-05 2:04 PM EST –
I don’t think either myself or anyone else in this thread was demeaning Chinese peoples ability to produce dam good products in almost any product sector. I suppose my concerns are connected with a company with a very long history of producing a proven product switching production to a company and workforce potentially unfamiliar with its requirements.
I think I would have the same concerns if I had heard that they were switching production to another factory in England especially if I thought none of the current workforce was involved and that the management were trying to run the new production facility remotely.
Sorry if I caused offence, it was not intended
It is not a question of standards
or intelligence or motivation. In our dealings, with several different sources, the modus operandi is not to produce the highest quality product at the outset of a new venture or product cycle. If it does not meet the prevailing acceptance criteria, it is then upgraded in increments until it is accepted at the lowest tolerable cost.
China
No apology neccessary-Im not Asian nor was I offended by anyone. I was making more of a general statement on “Made in China” being thought of as a bad thing. Quality is a problem that falls on the companies shoulders. Im sure working conditions in China are horrible and its wrong. However, so were the Ford plants and the textile industry in this country- things were worked out eventually. The desperation of poverty makes it acceptable to these people to work under those conditions. It is up to them to change those conditions- like it was up to Americans or English or whoever- to improve conditions.
If P&H still considers quality important then nothing should change. If they de-emphasize quality then it will be obvious and we dont buy their kayaks.
I would just like to remind everyone
that in days gone by there was an American company that had composite kayaks built out of country in Canada. The Canadian boats were of much greater quality than the one built here, that is if they are even still built here in the U.S. so who knows?
I emailed P&H to see if they had a responce to this thread and as you can see so far…no reply at all.
I kind of feel that it’s unfair to start rumors about this kind of stuff without proof. Kind of like the one about Perception funding Alcida. It serves no real perpose but to stir the pot, or troll.
Not just rumors
I think Peter Orton speaks from knowledge.
People are not wrong to be concerned about a change in maufacturing. I believe this thread has both reflected genuine concerns and, thanks to Peter et al, shed some light on the situation under discussion.
BTW, it is generally agreed that often the best quality manufacture of kayaks is Canadian.
I stand corrected
As I admit that I didn’t read Peaters thread before rushing off to work this morning. I’m happy to have read it and see the facts of the matter.
Thanks for pointing this out to me. I’ve been very busy in the shop making a greenland paddle and am covered with sawdust to the point of not being recognizable. I will get cleaned up and read it again!
Having read this over
and thinking about it all I have to say is…
It’s a very sad state of affairs when a company who employs only “12 to 15 people total” has to resort to farming out work to China and either give up hands on control of their product or perminantly station someone overseas to guard against incompetence. It almost sounds like “Monty Pythons Flying Kayaks”
Something very wrong with this pictue!
I’m afraid…
…that this is typical of many manufacturing firms. As someone who worked in the semiconductor industry for many years and lost his job due to offshoring, I speak from experience. The driving force is cheap labor, plain and simple. Why pay U.S. salaries and wages when you can pay 25 or 50 cents an hour overseas? Once a company moves its operations to China (or Mexico, or Tailand, or India, or wherever), then its competition has to follow suit or be driven out of business because of the inability to compete due to labor costs.
I won’t get on my soapbox (too much) about the “global economy” and the un-evenness of the playing field, but one thinkg is for sure. The trend of offshoring is not going to stop anytime soon. Corporate greed and the consumers’ insistance on low prices will continue to drive it forward.
Most recreational kayaks are rotomolded; an operation that is largely automated. There’s not much operator skill involved, so the process lends itself well to being produced by unskilled labor. These types of industries are perfectly suited to offshoring. I personally believe that if one kayak manufacturer moves its manufacturing to China, then it won’t be long until they are do. It’s simple economics.
JK
Rule of thumb
If their freight cost is more than our labor- make it here.
And vice versa.
This is a simplistic business strategy which does not consider less tangible macro-economic factors.
One more tangible macro
factor is not to give our country away. It hurts when I hear stories like those of incanoe.
Although I tend to be liberal, as a business owner I find it reprehensible to see American jobs disappear.
Sorry- this is more for B&B than here.
Just about every major brand sailboard
is made in Thailand. Waterskis, wake,snow,kite and many long boards too. Been to the (huge) factory several times and it is pretty amazing to see.
There IS a secret spot in China where boats can be built as well as a manufacturer WANTS them to be built…As for the people building them, just show them how and watch it happen without complaint, need for a ‘break’ every couple hours, employer coddling, or chip on the shoulder attitudes.
OK… so let me get this straight
– Last Updated: Sep-25-05 11:26 AM EST –
What we have here is a true catch 22. Send the boats off to China to be built, get rid of those pesky employees or at least most of them and appease the rest by telling them we will still build "some" of the boats here for a while. Cost to produce will be so low that high cost shipping will be offset. We can sit on our ass and collect money and just answer the phone ourselves, even get rid of the receptionist!
Oh but wait! who will we sell our boats to? Not me...I don't shop at Wallmart for the same reasons. Doing business with Cina has killed """thousands""" of American jobs and now that we have built China they are consuming so much energy that I can't drive my car or heat my house! And I can't get a raise but everything and all things are becoming so costly that I may need to by China made goods just to stay alive!
Sorry for going off
Simplistic strategy
I agree with Bruce. There are less tangible factors to consider as well. For one, what happens if (heaven forbid) we get drawn into a war and no longer have the domestic manufacturing capacity to make the equipment we need? Or, what happens if we p___ China off, let’s say by supporting Taiwan’s resistance to Chinese occupation (there is a treaty which requires us to do that), and in retaliation China nationalizes all the US investments in plant and equipment over there? I seriously doubt that we would risk war with a superpower in order to take back our investments.
It seems that we are giving away much of what made this country strong for the short term corporate goal of maximizing profits without considering the ramifications of doing so. I also cannot see how a country can thrive on a service ecomony alone. Successful nations have diverse economic structures comprised of manufacturing and service industries. That way their economy does not suffer as much as a whole if one segment or another suffers a temporary downturn.
I think we will eventually see the small boat shops who cater to paddlers who want the best quality continuing to make boats in the U.S. The large corporations that build mass produced boats will over time move operations overseas. Sorry, I realize this is a paddling discussion board and not an economics discussion board, but all the discussion in this thread shows what a hot topic it is.
JK
Free Enterprise vs Big Government
– Last Updated: Sep-25-05 10:23 AM EST –
We like to preach the virtues of free enterpise, but more and more coporations who claims that is what they want are relying more and more on making their profits by having their products manufactured in overseas government subsudized factories. So ironically if it weren't for a Big Government then these corporations might be sucking wind on their own preachings. So if eliminating big government is our goal, then maybe a policy shift is due or we need to redefine fair trade.
Well said N.T. and incanoe