smaller people need smaller area blades
older people find they have to shorten the blade.
The concept of torque has great relevance for canoe blades. The edges of wide paddles can exert a lot of force in turns… or if you have to angle the blade to correct the course of the boat.
Big blades are used in FreeStyle as that is a very low cadence paddling activity and the torque generated through turns needed. Hulls are generally derived from touring hulls not whitewater design.
Faster cadence paddles are light and usually short in case hit and switch is needed. Look at the Zaveral paddles (not the dragon boat or the whitewater paddles) they are somewhat wide, but short and meant to be used at 60 bpm or more.
In water recoveries in themselves are initially tiring as the muscle memory needed to get a clean recovery slice takes time to develop… Also there is quite a friction loss and any wandering of the paddle needs force from the paddler.
What really matters is the flex pattern,
the ie..."stiffness" of a paddle(blade/shaft)..but of course area(width & LENGTH) plays into it all, but width, alone, isn't as huge an issue as one might think. If you really look at the paddle width doesn't change all by itself. Your canoe's specs determine what kind of blade length and flex. Flex(density/burliness), weight(for your physical attributes) and Length/(depth of blade) have a LOT more importance than a paddle's width. Try to find some of Greg Barton's articles/videos to learn what really matters in a paddle stroke. When one pulls the blade through the water it results in inefficiency in moving the hull forward. The true goal is in planting the blade, without adding in any drag, and pulling the hull up and past the blade's placement without it losing any degreeable amount of water density to diminish the amount of "pull" on the hull. You want to elliminate that splashing of your paddle as it moves "back"...and substitute the paddle and you pulling yourself and the hull FORWARD. A good paddler can make efficient strokes with any width of paddleblade, as long as the other specs match the paddler's physical makeup...and as long as the blade isn't cheaply made....
lots
of assumptions being made in this comparison. First off, A Greenland paddle doesn’t necessarily have less square inches than a Euro paddle. Some Greenland paddles actually have more surface area. Another is that length of the paddles seem to be assume as the same for skinny vs wide blades…not true. and length of the arc either down or out to the side some , makes a difference. Cut or shape of all paddles involve makes a difference as to how, within the stroke, they load. A paddle that loads gently will be easier on the joint whether it is an Euro or a Greenland…paddle entry shape is a very huge thing as far as which set of muscles are engaged and what point. So one might ask…what exactly are you asking about comparing a single blade vs a double blade as far as fatigue? are you doing this question for use with a pack canoe?
comparison
Thanks for all the replies. I wasn’t that clear in the original post. I’m not asking about a comparison between single-blade paddles and double-blade paddles. I AM asking about skinny paddles vs fatter paddles. I’m asking about skinny vs. fat paddles in two different scenarios: one involving double-bladed skinny paddles vs. double-bladed fat paddles, and the other one involving single-bladed skinny paddles vs single-bladed fat paddles.
OK then
If I made two paddles {double bladed} a Narrow Greenland Paddle and a short wide Euro style paddle. and made them so that they had the same surface area.
They would have the same amount of purchase on the water. However it would be distributed differently as far as the stroke goes. The narrower paddle would have a narrower entry point and so have less resistance at the catch and have an easier feeling catch . so at the point where you are extended and not yet enacting the rotation and at your weakest position , body wise…it would be easier. the wide paddle would catch abruptly with a suddenness. {these would be extreme examples} however as the paddles are submerged after the initial catch, having the same area…the longer paddle might actually gain in power because of the speed the tip is moving sweeping a longer arc. So to surmise,The short wide paddle would have a more immediate catch with power but the longer paddle would catch up during the stroke. This is one of the reasons that a Greenland paddle tends to be easier on the joints.
To gain easy on the joints with a wide short paddle. Instead of using in a continuous smooth entry / stroke…the paddle must be eased into the water in a gentler manner and then the stroke is continued …a narrow blade {whether Greenland or narrow Euro} , does this by it’s cut. and then even among the narrow blades a tip that is narrowed still more has a more pronounce and noticeable easier catch. you see this design in the Aleutian Paddles and the early {pre 1850’s} style Greenland Paddles.
Hope this make sense {Oh and the obligatory YMMV}
feel free to argue:}
Best Wishes
Roy
This
is also what makes a Euro paddle a better design for Whitewater and the Greenland style better for touring on the sea. The crossover is in the surf. On large lakes or the ocean , there is plenty of depth to use all of the Greenland paddle so it is not at a disadvantage like it is in rock strewn rivers. in some ways and some surf, the Greenland paddle can actually be an advantage. It is able to reach down and get beyond the foam and get purchase on the green water below .
It is however easier for a company already making Euro paddles to just use the same shaft and change the blade width or cut slightly and then call it a sea kayak paddle...they all work and again YMMV
Best Wishes
Roy
Canoe or kayak
Meaning single or double blade, my comments remain the same as above.
For clarification, I assumed narrow paddle = smaller surface area and a wide paddle meant larger surface area. I know this is not necessarily true, it’s just the way I interpreted the OP.
The large surface area paddles at Dick’s sporting goods will not propel your boat any faster than a smaller volumes Aquabound stingray but the wear placed on your body will be significantly less, which equals to more endurance, which over time means more distance covered at a higher rate.
The difference in cadence require to maintain a hulls best speed is minuscule.
Off topic but relating to several people’s comments, I bought a closet pole from the hardware store to pole my canoe with. 2" round and 12, long. I use it while kneeling. When the river gets too deep to touch bottom it makes an amazingly effective paddle even with a skinny curved power face when there is 9 feet of it in the water.
I use it like a double blade, letting it slide through my hands back and forth. I wouldn’t paddle any great distance like that but it will get me to the next shallow part in the river. Before I discovered this I was worried I would be constantly switching back and forth between the pole and a paddle.
troll troll
Troll…
The stern or midhull discussion runs a parallel route where energy loss pivoting zigzagING cog forms a productive analysis for the individual: are you or not ?
Here, posters refer to wider surfaces for single stroke effects in WW reflecting skill, power.
Dropping down several skill/power levels,
we look at a large surface paddle used into a headwind on a rockered west coast hull.
The large blade asks for precision lest power forward be wasted in power in the wrong direction now asking for more power getting toward CMG
Therefore there are recommends for narrower paddles in windy conditions
This is logical but doesn’t make sense in a discussion maybe only in CMG.
Back to the bridge !
Got it
Ok, I understand now. Thanks. It’s funny, I never would have thought about this except recently I was in a situation where I had a choice between using a then paddle, or not paddling at all. I had assumed that at best, it would be a serious compromise. To my surprise, in this particular situation, it was far easier to paddle with one hand (while fishing with the other) than with the thick paddle I normally use.
slight error
"If I made two paddles {double bladed} a Narrow Greenland Paddle and a short wide Euro style paddle. and made them so that they had the same surface area.
They would have the same amount of purchase on the water."
The “purchase” on the water is proportional to the area times the drag coefficient. Two paddles with the same area but different shapes will have different drag coefficients, hence different purchase.
Greenland technique
I have only been using the Greenland paddle I made for a few months now. I had previously become comfortable with a Werner Corryvrecken high angle paddle. I had moved up from a Werner Cyprus that just didn't have enough bite for me, as much as I tried to convince myself it did. Before that it was a low angle Werner Camano.
I finally got curious enough to build a Greenland paddle and began researching technique. On thing you will find fairly quickly is people referring to the canted stroke for the Greenland. This technique involves placing the paddle into the water with the blade rotated forward. Then the blade acts like a wing and wants to dive somewhat when you pull it back. You resist that force and realize this paddle can generate considerable power if you desire. But apparently more speed comes with a faster paddling cadence rather than with a more powerful stroke. Like fine tuning most sports, it is about finding the groove.
I also found the simple straight shaft and unfeathered blades allows very subtle paddle edge control. You can dial in as much resistance as you want. As others have mentioned The Greenland can also have considerable surface area.. Mine has more than the Cyprus, about the same as a low angle Camano, and slightly less than the Corryreckon. But the magic is in the canted stroke. Comparing techniques that only look at surface area does not tell the whole story. I like the more elbows-in Greenland technique, and my clear cedar paddle is a joy to hold and is noticeably lighter than my other carbon paddles, which will probably go up for sale soon.
Not slight
You correctly point out the error of the statement, but it is not a slight arror, it is a fundamental misstatement. Paddle performance depends as much on shape (and therefore drag coefficient) as it does on area. That’s the whole topic of hydrodynamics, after all, the interaction of body shape and fluid flow.
slight?
Do you happen to know what the Cd difference between, say, a typical spoon blade shape and a typical GP? I would not have thought it would be much greater than 10 or 15%. But I have no basis for this.
Good question
I bet the difference is in the range you mention, and will vary based on angle of the blades, shape, etc. But drag coefficient only tells the story of the drag-based component of propulsion. There will also be ‘lift’ for the GP, so the lift coefficient will also be relevant. I say lift in the sense of a thrust force perpendicular to the local angle of attack of the paddle. A component of that lift will act in the direction of travel, giving a thrust force to the boat. The lateral component of lift gives the tendency of the paddle to dive (or the boat to roll if the diving is restrained).
The drag force in that reference frame may also contribute to the thrust supplied, so I think keeping the term lift is valid, although lift is usually assumed to be opposed to the gravity vector. To the extent that a GP behaves as an airfoil section, the traditional lift and drag concepts remain helpful in the analysis.
gp cd greater
I would also think that for the same area the GP drag coefficient would be greater.
Wing paddles
I’ve been using them exclusively for years. I have no issues with joint pain using them. I have 3 wings, all different lengths and blade size. Depending which boat I use, then I pick the wing that is appropriate. I’m not a lilly dipper, speed and distance are my forte. I’m a very fit 63 year old.
cadence
I think of it like bicycling. If the goal is to ride for several hours, it’s generally better to spin a lower gear(less force per stroke)at a higher cadence than to push a slower cadence in a higher gear. That usually results in less muscle fatigue over time.
But on a long ride, I do like to vary my efforts, and will pedal standing in a high gear for intervals just to work different muscles.
When I go paddling, I usually take two different paddle sizes or types for the same reason. It’s nice to be able to 'change gears" depending on conditions, mood, or fatigue level.
As My Canoe Guru Would Say:
“Size of paddle blade only determines how much fulcrum you want to use.”
muscle memory
Found that I have difficulty planting the blades properly when switching back and forth from western to Greenland paddles inasmuch as I paddle the western with feathered blades. That is one issue. The cadence with the Greenland definitely needs to be a little faster, but it is easier in a long day paddle. One serious issue is when you paddle in shallow waters and are unable to plant the whole Greenland paddle. This can be frustrating because the few inches of submerged blade doesn’t come close to that of a western blade in like circumstances. I was one that switched from western to Greenland but still carry the western as a backup. However, using the whole paddle of the Greenland, with sliding strokes to correct steering, is an efficient way to paddle.
Skinny water with Greenland
I don’t find that my cadence is very different between a spoon, wing and my favorite Greenland paddles. Consider this: it’s not difficult at all to make a Greenland paddle that is too wide or too long and results in too low a cadence.
IMO what makes the GP so good for long distance is a variety of factors including technique. With good technique your GP blade will feel as solidly planted as a wing. The amount of lifting performed (combined weight of paddle AND arms) also plays a role. I have a blog post on this at http://www.gregstamer.com/2012/02/12/greenland-paddle-wing-paddle.
Handling skinny water with a GP is simple, use a very low stroke. A low sliding stroke also works well. With a very low stroke you can bury the entire blade in water six inches or so. You aren’t going to go fast in water that shallow anyway, unless perhaps you are Serge Corbin popping a canoe…
Greg Stamer