Second Nature
I guess I have spent enough time in my canoe(s) to totally understand your thoughts Marc. I am far from a freestyle paddler and paddle one of the most ungodly and heavy canoes but I sure make her dance when I need to and feel as if I am one with her when I am on the water.
I have even done enough sailing with her that I have gotten comfortable doing that and understand when I am pushing the limits, not for me but what the hull can stand and how it’s going to act. Poling is the same way. You know it’s all good when you realize you’ve gone a distance and your thoughts are elsewhere and not on how you our using your blade! That thar is heaven in my book.
I am now learning two new hulls to me and slowly I am getting the feel for them and how I need to use my paddle to move along.
dougd
hey mark
I agree to a point. I'm a kayaker but I think there's magic in the way freestyle canoeists move their craft. It's beautiful.
A double-blade kayaker CAN move a boat sideways thru the water with strokes such as a side scull or draw. I do it all the time, sometimes with one hand while my other is fiddling with the camera. Here's an example from someone else that I found on youtube (while not particularly graceful):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIN8_zcDFPA&feature=related
So some of the moves can be approximated by a double-blade kayaker, given the boat has a more "sympathetic" keel or the paddler utilizes a good lean. What makes freestyle canoeing remarkable to me is that you accomplish this all with a single blade, and an open deck.
Keep up the good work.
no, it doesn’t
Because a given video doesn't show something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Look up a side draw or side scull.
The greatest difference is the number of blades. A double-blade kayaker can move a boat sideways, forward, backward, and in a circular motion in place. It's just not shown on this particular video.
Something that would be interesting
is FreeStyle Stand Up Paddling…think of it…anyone do that?
The basic concepts should work.
In theory, heel and pitch should be easy to manage, one would simply weight one foot or the other and could easily move forward and back on the board. I question how much blade control one would have.From a mechanical perspective, the paddler would have poor leverage with both grip and shaft hand so far from the blade. Imagine paddling a canoe with a short paddle, keeping your grip and shaft hands constantly choked up.
All that having been said, I’ve never tried SUP and I’d be interested in the perspective of someone who has.
Marc Ornstein
Dogpaddle Canoe Works
Custom Canoe Paddles and Woodstrip Canoes
True enough, …
... but as I said, "the methods shown" do not illustrate anything remotely related to the original topic of this thread.
I do tend to believe that, at least among average paddlers, double-blade paddling reinforces the notion that our little boats must be steered like cars. To be fair, the same thing happens among single-bladers, but I think a bit less often. Anyway, I had in interesting discussion here (interesting to me anyway) a few years ago, with a so-called "expert" kayaker about choosing a boat for light rapids. I suggested to someone that a 13- or 14-foot touring kayak would be suitable for a river having a bit of Class I and II. I reasoned that in such a boat the paddler could resort to backferrying in those occasional tight spots, and the boat would shine on the miles of flatwater that dominate such a river. The "expert" said I was nuts, and that only a whitewater boat should even be considered for such a river. I say "expert" because another guy chimed in and said he was such a good paddler that I should just take his word for it and realize that the boat I suggested simply wouldn't work. It's interesting that the boat in your video is pretty far off from a whitewater design, huh? **Edit** Just to make the point more clear, I think only a person who's familiar with nothing other than steering maneuvers would insist so strongly that you need a full-on whitewater boat to successfully make your way through light rapids, but I don't think that mindset is at all rare.
One way street
This thread has reminded me also that once a sense of feeling is developed - in any, even the simplest, field - well, stick with it. I’ve noticed that if I find myself thinking a lot about “the basics” while paddling, its likely I’m about to screw up. That’s fine for a practice session, but IMHO it should be avoided when it HAS to count.
Imagine yourself driving down the street thinking about the order and mechanics of shifting or which way to turn the steering wheel to make the car go right, thinking beginner’s thoughts. You’re liable to drift or hit something at just that moment. Just like a complete beginning driver.
Suppose you’re hiking and thinking a lot about which leg muscle to relax and which to contract - you’ll walk into a tree or over a cliff if you keep it up too long. You’re not paying attention to what’s more important at the time.
Just like in paddling. I don’t think it even matters much if we’re experts, as you obviously are in freestyle: It can happen to anyone in any kind of paddling who has some grasp of basics and developed a “feel” for what they’re doing, yet might get “rattled” and to return to a more amateurish mindset at just the wrong time.
I’m thinking that sense of feel you’re describing is actually the difference between being a “beginner” or an “intermediate” in any skill. We all learned to drive, walk, ride a bicycle, maybe play a scale and construct chords in music; but once learned its best to rely mostly on “feel.” We’re then free to observe what’s going on around us, adapt to it, and to think about what best we can do with what we’ve got.
If we try to go back we’re liable to “choke” at a bad time like even the best golfers can, or has happened to even very good opera singers in critical performances.
For what its worth, if anything, I think the naming and practicing of individual strokes or maneuvers are necessary tools for teaching others and in our own early learning stages, and its probably worthwhile to revisit them once in a while in practice sessions, but its perhaps even counterproductive in many “real-world” situations. A trained sense of “feeling” is what gets the job done. There are many very highly skilled paddlers here from all the varied aspects of our sport, so have others noticed this?
My own approach to improving paddling skills, since I’m not in a hurry or planning to compete in anything, is to pick a stroke or maneuver that I’m not feeling particularly graceful with and work on it a little each time I go out for a whole season or until I have an instinct for it. I’m just a guy who likes to paddle and I’m just saying what I do, not recommending it for anyone who is wanting to compete or is in a hurry to run big technical whitewater, surf big waves, or anything like that. That would obviously require more rigorous training and practice.
As to “paddling in anger”: Any racers here? I know I’ve had my fastest paddling days when I was just PO’d about something and was in a mood to try to out paddle my own wake. I’m not ordinarily anything like a racer, but I could have given a racer a serious run for their money on those days.
Even fear… bet I’ve broken my own personal sprinting records while trying to make it to a landing before that squall line with all that wind and lightning hits. Has anyone else noticed that?
But I agree completely, even on those days stroke dynamics were far from my mind. I was paddling with what some might call negative feelings, and I was maybe giving the water a pretty good beating but, by gum, it was with feeling. And it yielded speed, if not much grace.
Great topic. Thanks for bringing it up.
Where do I go to learn about freestyle?
I’ve been following this thread and keep seeing the term freestyle. None of my paddling friends know much about it. I’ve seen some of the fancy stuff on you tube, but this thread seems to be about something else. Perhaps Marc or someone else could enlighten me and others like me.
Freestyle canoe.
You can learn it at the freestyle symposiums held around. You can find the schedule of symposiums at http://www.freestylecanoeing.com/ You can also find instructors from the website. There are a couple of instruction DVDs out there that are also helpful to get started.
I am a fan of the symposiums, because the instructors are wonderful and helpful. Plus you spend a few days in a small community of fellow paddlers that are willing to help you too.
The fancy stuff gets on camera
the 95 percent else that is not showy is not terribly entertaining to watch.
But that other 95 percent is the practical stuff that gets you somewhere with less effort.
Its no accident that one of the symposia is “obedience lessons for your canoe”. Maybe that should be termed “communicating with your canoe more effectively” but that sounds frightfully dull.
Feeling
I dubble blade my canoe quite a lot due to physical limitations-not choice,so I can compare the 2. The dubble blade propels my canoe well,but with a single blade I actually can feel the water through my paddle. Some single paddles communicate better than others. All have a different song to dance to. I have never felt this in any of my dubble paddles.
Turtle
There’s not a great deal I can add
to what’s already been said other than, the next event is the Florida Freestyle Symposium, March 16-19. It will be held in Yulee Florida, just outside of Jacksonville. Full info. is on the FS website that Tim has already posted.
If you’re not interested in the “fancy stuff” (and most folks aren’t), check out the Creekin FreeStyle class. This is an afternoon “enrichment” session, held on Lofton Creek, a short distance from the symposium site. This class is specifically designed around practical usage of the techniques.
I don’t know your canoeing background but to get the most benefit from the class, you’ll want a good foundation of the FS basics. You should have completed at a minimum, FS level 2. Those with experience at levels 3, 4 and 5 will be able to take full advantage.
Marc Ornstein
Dogpaddle Canoe Works
Custom Canoe Paddles and Woodstrip Canoes
Where are you nighthawk?
We can put you in touch with someone to help intro you to freestyle. Email me.
To add FFS
is not for “experts” only. Even if you have never canoed there is a class for you. There are no prerequisites nor admission requirements to any FS symposia.
You will get the most out of the Creeking FS class if you can maneuver your boat with basic strokes and some onside forward FS. And if you have the basic strokes already remember you will be learning more as you go. FFS is a multiday event.
The pleasure of "paddling with feeling"
Understanding and mastering FreeStyle techniques usually, for most, puts one in touch with “feeling” the paddle, nuances of the boat, subtle weight shifts and the like. Everything that is happening with the paddling becomes in tune. To me, this type of in-sync paddling is a joy unto itself.
Many paddlers tend to view the “paddling” aspect of canoeing as a means to an end…to arrive at a destination, or to access some interesting shoreline or scenery. Certainly these are valid criteria for canoeing. Efficient techniques can also make outrunning a thunderhead or manuevering down a challenging river somewhat more reactive and instinctive. However, being “in the moment” propelling a canoe with no wasted energy and taking the hull to it’s maximum limits can be great fun in and of itself. It is unfortunate that paddling for paddling’s sake is an asoect often overlooked by many.
PJC Notes
"I’ve noticed that if I find myself thinking a lot about “the basics” while paddling, its likely I’m about to screw up."
Actually, I often take note of the basics, even during casual paddling. I don’t dwell on the individual elements to the point that I loose the big picture, but if I want to improve, I can’t loose track of them.
It’s easy to get sloppy and and let the catch get out of vertical, or begin carrying the stroke too far back. How about numerous elements of a sloppy J stroke, that slow the boat or are less than fully effective.
On a recent trip I had reason to make a long sprint to the takeout. Failure to arrive by a non-negotiable deadline would result in the shuttle vehicle being stuck behind a locked gate. I’m not much of a hit and switch guy so I locked into a rhythm of forwards and cross forwards to get maximum speed. When I concentrated on keeping the strokes short and forward, I needed minimal correction. If I got lax on either, an occasional J was necessary to set me straight.
You can have your cake and eat it too. Paddle with feeling, as it has become natural, but don’t put you mind to sleep either.
Marc Ornstein
Dogpaddle Canoe Works
Custom Canoe Paddles and Woodstrip Canoes
the “original topic”
…didn’t draw poor analogies comparing two paddling methods, much less by those who only have in-depth experience in one. I respect the hell out of freestyle cnoeists but you’re simply wrong in your assumptions about how double-bladed paddlers move their boat through the water, and how they THINK about moving their boat through the water. The only significant distinction you seem to be drawing is that FS canoeing doesn’t have a destination. IMO the only distinction is that single-bladers take pride in mastering strokes and showcasing them (I mean this positively) with no necessary intent to go anywhere or avoid anything.
I’d suggest you expand your knowledge regarding double-bladed paddling because what you’ve written is not the most informed.
I’ve seen terms mentioned
such as neutral and closed angle. I’ve seen them before in other posts. I’m pretty much self taught and never learned these terms. Can someone please explain?
I may not be being clear, and may not…
... be totally correct.
I figure I'm not being clear because you conclude that "the only significant distinction you seem to be drawing is that FS canoeing doesn't have a destination". Well, for the life of me I can't figure out what I said that could be interpreted to mean such a thing. I know what I've seen, and I'm still waiting to see my first double-blader do anything other than "steer". I've told you what type of basic rapids a couple of experts on this forum said shouldn't even be attempted with a kayak that isn't designed for whitewater, and those weren't the words of someone who's familiar with the skills you alluded to (now that I think about it, it was also interesting that no one else challenged the idea that a 13- or 14-foot kayak is too ungainly to paddle light whitewater). In fact, I haven't said a single thing about the performance/competition aspect of freestyle canoeing. Instead, what I'm thinking about comes mostly from one-the-water experience with other paddlers, including the countless times I see someone get all tangled up in a downed tree for no reason that makes any sense and think to myself "if only he'd stop thinking so strictly in terms of turning to avoid obstacles".
I'm sure I'm wrong, as you say, and no doubt if people with your skill level were the norm I'd be blatantly wrong. I don't make a habit of reading all the kayaking posts, so even if I've never seen mention of any strokes for kayaks that are not ordinary steering maneuvers (sweeps, reverse sweeps, rudders and bowrudders) it doesn't mean nobody uses other strokes. You say I should "expand my knowledge" of what people do with double blades. Well, admittedly I don't care enough about the subject to buy a book about it, but maybe I wouldn't have drawn the conclusion I did if somewhere along the line I'd see a double-blader doing something other than steer. Anyway, as long as there are 100s of times as many double-bladers as single-bladers, I don't feel too guilty about saying what I did, even if it's technically wrong.
For what it's worth, I have met exactly ONE very good kayaker (actually, I believe I've met three, but I've never seen the other two paddle anything but canoes, (and after another hour or two I have thought of a couple more that probably qualify)). He posts here occasionally. I've done a few extended trips with him but it was on a wide-open river where there's no real maneuvering needed. I bet if I asked him (or the others I thought of), he'd be able to show the sorts of skills you speak of but which I've never actually seen in action. Still, I think my main point really got lost because I only referred to it as what Marc mentioned, and it's NOT just the kinds of strokes that are used, but the manner in which they are used. When single-blading a canoe, no two consecutive strokes are likely to be the same much of the time, and even when going straight ahead there's no predicting the exact path of the paddle or the manner in which blade-angle changes will occur during the whole stroke, except with hard-tracking boats. One never knows how the next stroke will turn out "until it happens". Conversely, I think that in double-blading, one can usually know in advance what path and nature each forward power stroke will have, and there is no immediate need to alter any given stroke at multiple points along its path because an opposing stroke will definitely take place in less time than it takes for anything to go seriously awry. Thus it becomes a fairly simple matter to adjust the strength of the stroke and/or the degree of sweep on one side versus the other as a means of keeping the boat pointed where you want it. On these boards I've never seen a post saying that when double-blading, almost every new stroke evolves throughout the time the blade is in the water, but I've seen that mentioned plenty of times about single-blading. I really think that's a pretty basic difference.
As to how people "think" about moving the boat, I can refer to myself better than anyone else. I'm getting too long-winded again, but here goes. It took me more than a year to learn to J-stroke well enough that I could even begin to keep up with good solo paddler, and more than a year again before I could really combine control with good speed. It took lots and lots of practice which was anything but pleasant during the first few months. That's why for a whole year BEFORE I attempted to become halfway-decent with a single blade, I double-bladed my first solo canoe almost 100 percent of the time. During that initial double-blading time, it was so ridiculously easy to maintain a heading, change heading, carve a constant curve, or maintain a back-ferry angle even when crossing lines of turbulence in rapids that there was NO motivation whatsoever for me to learn anything fancy. Why experiment with new strokes when I could do everything that was ever needed with basic, totally-intuitive strokes? Once I took a serious approach to learning the single blade, I found that even going in a straight line (and doing it well) on flatwater was many times more difficult than any of the hardest maneuvers in Class-II rapids that I'd previously done during my first year with the double blade. BECAUSE doing something as simple as maintaining a heading required so much attention to detail throughout each stroke, I had much MORE inclination to experiment with what variations in paddle application could do, and of course I even discovered things by accident when things didn't go according to plan. For me, simply using a more-complex method prompted me to think about more complex possibilities than had ever been the case when effective strokes were so incredibly simple. That's what I was referring to earlier about double-blade paddling having more of a tendency to lead to a simpler mindset about boat control. Sure there are good double-bladers, but necessity is the mother of invention, and if a simple method does everything you need, how strong is the driving force for the average Joe to start essentially "making things harder" than they already are? That was my experience, and I bet I'm not the only one.
By the way. Thanks for sticking to your guns on this one. We probably don't disagree as much as we are concentrating on different aspects of the topic.
You’re right
Of course. A little thought about basic technique every once in a while is in order in any kind of paddling. I do that as I suspect most of us do.
Speaking only for myself, there seems especially to be a switch in my head that goes off when I change over to a bent shaft paddle. I tend to pick up my cadence and place my strokes more vertically, but I’ll admit I have to keep reminding myself to not carry the stroke too far back. That’s an intellectual thing - not one of feel.
Apparently about twelve years back when I made a conscious effort for a season or two to practice sit and switch, I practiced it a bit wrong and now have to correct it, though for the time being the correction also “feels” wrong. The strokes just feel too short and fast. Feels like I’m trying to imitate an egg beater. In fact, after having worked for a long time, a little bit at a time, at various ways of paddling, sit and switch itself no longer feels very good to me. Seems like an occasionally useful but somewhat graceless way to paddle.
Perhaps I was reading this post, and thank you for it, through a lens… A good friend of mine was a researcher at the psychology dept. here at the local U. We happened to have had a number of conversations about “muscle memory” which some of his colleagues had been studying. I was seeing “paddling with feeling” as paddling with a good solid trust in the well-trained feeling of well-practiced strokes and the transitions between strokes. Once that “feeling” or “muscle memory” is developed, as it naturally becomes in many physical activities, its often a mistake to try and rethink it.
I don’t take unplanned swims very often. It strikes me as noteworthy that in every case where I took an unplanned swim, I can recall exactly the stroke I made before I hit the drink. Have others here noticed that?
Has me now suspecting that I remember those strokes out of countless others precisely because I was consciously thinking about and overly focused on executing the stroke while forgetting some other important factor. I wasn’t paddling with “feeling”. Probably was over-thinking it.
For my own two cents worth, paddling of any kind is a thing of feeling. Its sensuous by nature. A racer’s trained sense of feeling is, I suspect, slightly different from a freestyler’s, or a surfer’s, or a white water paddler’s, but once we develop it, a feeling for paddling is a thing we all share. Some of the most pleasant and memorable of all my experiences, paddling or otherwise, have been those moments when I’ve gone out after camp is set to just putz around doing sculling draws with my bow pointed to a log in the water, the gloaming settling in, campfire glowing on shore, the sparrows surrendering the river to the nighthawks, river sounds all around… Box stroke spins under the stars on a full moon night or feeling a side current grab the bow, encouraged by a slight shift in weight, effortlessly turning to the river’s course - its a wonderfully sensuous sport.
You freestylers capture that feeling of beauty, precision, and grace that we all feel at least occasionally while paddling and can somehow convey it to others, even non-paddlers. Its a truly beautiful thing that you do. Its art of the finest sort. Thank you.