“I’m actually paddling hard”
“I’m actually paddling hard, my legs don’t need “support” anyway”
Bingo.
That bring up a good point: To ever have any hope of getting your outfitting right you need to actually be paddling. The longer and harder the better to really dial it in. Sitting still fit doesn’t matter, paddling fit does. What feels best moving and allows the best technique is likely not the same as what you’d setup if you used your kayak as a TV chair.
The only discomforts I tend to feel from being in kayaks are directly proportional to the amount of time I am sitting/drifting/lily dipping vs. actively paddling. I can actively paddle for a few hours and be more flexible than when I started. No back/leg pain or numbness, just good overall fatigue. If I’m just bobbing around I’ll get stiff and have comfort issues in as little as 15 minutes. If you’re sitting immobile in one position - of course you’ll get discomforts, poor circulation, numbness and pain.
Even minimal rotation with leg action is enough to keep these problems to a minimum - and pads and cushions can interfere with this. Short term comfort fixes are often bad long term. It’s a kayak, not a lounge chair.
Most of the folks on this thread are saying the same thing about leg position - they just don’t realize it.
You can’t outfit for static comfort (just sitting there) and expect that to work while actually paddling. The guideline mentioned at the start of this thread is a baseline measure to account for this and give a starting point. It allows for rotation, good contact/control, and even stretching. It should work for most as described - but some may still need to tweak from there. After the foot distance has been established, some attention to thigh padding and maybe hips complete the setup.
If you actually paddle over any distance with even minimal rotation and even just passable technique (like me!) you’ll quickly find that less is more regarding outfitting. No need for under thigh supports, deeply padded seat cushions, high seat backs, etc. All these can interfere with rotation (AKA core and leg vs arm paddling) and circulation - exacerbating the conditions the seek to alleviate.
Through active paddling you’ll dial in the right balance between foot brace to backband or rear of seat pan length - and floor to underside of thigh brace depth - because that will simply be what works. When it’s right it becomes barely noticed. You can just do what you need to in reasonable comfort.
bulkhead pad
Same distance relation as pegs. I Can extend an lockout my knees -and and flex foot and knee - exactly the same as I did with pegs. The difference is I have a something approaching 10-12x the surface area.
Mostly my feet are pretty similarly positioned to where they were with pegs - but I do vary that and am no longer locked into the splayed/frogleg position (killer on knees-thighs-hips-lower backs).
I can’t tell you how much difference this makes. Take care of your feet and the rest will follow. Leg and back issues magically vanish.
Plus - ZERO risk of a foot slipping off/missing a peg, getting hung up on a peg, or a peg/rail breaking. Really nice for rolling and exit/reentry stuff.
For rudders - not an option - but almost with a setup like Patrick’s. Tiller bar systems too, and some gas pedal setups. All far superior to pegs.
Little pegs just suck! Everyone just accepts them without much though because that’s what their kayaks come with. Only when you get rid of them can you really notice what they were doing to you, and not doing for you.
Damn
In my new SOF The masik hits me between my knee and ankle (about 2/3 rds of the way) I can’t go further forward because there is no room for my feet under the deck. So I have to bend my legs and put my knees up agaainst the deck fabric on each side of the cockpit rim. (of course I’m not a “real” greenlander 
?!?!?!?!??!?!
What did you do - make a big commercial style cockpit?
My condolences. Just kidding - All kinds of SOF. No reason they all have to be set up to do the same things.
Consider building another though. There’s not much sweeter on the water that a masik or masik/knee brace pair (like I have) that is over your thighs - from just above the kneecaps (nothoing on knees/shins - ouch!).
Tightness is optional. I like mine to where I can just slip my hands in between thigh and masik with legs flat (equivalent to maybe 2" under thigh braces on my other kayak that ride a little higher up on my thigh). Lets me work legs and engage/crunch on alternating sides. Boats with beam narrow enough or outfitted to minimize any bowleggedness is nice too (though wide boats can need knees out to get purchase/leverage to lock in and roll if they don’t have masik).
paddling position
I found greyak’s distinction between active paddling and inactive sitting on point.
Many newcomers are all arms and, preoccupied with learning many new skills, are not paying much attention to leg position. Thus they do tire sooner and become passive, which plays into different inefficient positions, numbness, lower back pain etc.
Many Americans are just not very flexible, and/or allow their flexibility to deteriorate, because our favorite sports (to view or to do) emphasize pure strength, major muscle compression, fast twitch muscles, or vertical agility, neither of which has much to do with paddling. To sit in a flexed position, pushing with legs and torso, is not natural or practiced in most of our other leisure activities. Swimming for fitness and yoga would be two exceptions to that.
Lastly, to each his/her own of course, but with proper posture, forward lean and commitment to good form, most of the “add-ons” in terms of seat pads, higher seat backs, may in a strange way work against the ultimate goals of the paddler (assuming the ultimate goal is beyond splashing a hour or so any old which way you can)
This is not my very own opinion, although I agree with it. Every fulltime staffer at one very respected outfitter (28 years and counting) said that many first time buyere were basing their new purchases mainly on the oversized, high backed “comfortable” seat and “leg room” defined as fully stretched out, when just good posture, pelvic tilt and flex would have allowed them to successfully use and enjoy many other kayaks that might be more suitable in other ways.
The salespeople tried to explain otherwise but could not persuade the customer.
2 position foam block
RE: Grayak and the padded out bulkhead, I know paddlers that remove the pegs and use foam block down there. At least one person likes using a two position block. Next to the chines, where you normally would rest your feet on pegs, the block mimicks her preffered foot position, with the knees bent and the heel to toe position angling forward. Inboard, towards the center of the kayak, there’s a tunnel in the block for a secondary foot position with the legs straight out. If I ever get around to it, I’ll do something like that for my kayak. Meanwhile, I’m still on the pegs.
I start off with my knees up and thigh braces engaged. My foot is angled forward, and I keep a bit of pressure on that locks me in place. What I have noticed is that if I am paddling any distance, my legs tend to come down from the thigh braces and my legs approach a more stretched out position. At that point the balls of the feet are still on the peg, and my foot may be at a 90 degree or greater angle to the calf.
Chip Walsh, Gambrills, MD
I found it unnecessary
I had planned to do the same thing, but when you get the right distance - it lets you do both. A center hole also won’t let you try paddling feet/knees together sometimes.
Using 1/2" exercise mat for the outside layers makes it easy to fine tune (and hold up better). 15 degree tilt forward is also very nice - just be sure you measure the difference in distance this tilt creates - in other words distance at foot peg/ball of foot height.
Similar
I can stretch my legs out really straight down the middle of the boat in both my boats, with the foam blocks in a relatively neutral position for doing both that and hugging up more up into the thigh braces. In fact it I don’t do so once every hour or two for a bit my sciatic nerve starts screaming.
But my boats either start out or are padded down to give me a fairly low volume vertically - probably makes that easier.
bingo again nm
the next day I have more flex
This year most every paddle event has improved my overall flexibility the next day. I clearly need to paddle more than once a week.
I remember the days when I had to use my walking stick to pull myself out of my water bed, use my hands to pull my legs out of the car, and so forth. That was a decade ago.
Americans are not flexible for many reasons. There is some truth to “use it or lose it” I suppose.
Masik and footpegs
What you wrote is true, with regards to anchoring your lower body using the masik. However a Greenland SOF certainly has a “footrest” in the form of a deck beam, that spans the deck (and gives you many more foot placement options than a Yakima-style “postage stamp” footrest). Many builders also place a rib just aft of the deck beam to act a heel rest.
I interviewed some of the Greenlanders at the 2000 competition. Some of them reported to anchor the lower body with the masik (on the side opposite the stroke), some of them reported to use the footrest on the side of the stroke, and some of them reported to feel both the masik and footrest.
This is not really surprising when you consider that when you push forward with the leg/foot on the (working) paddle side of the stroke, the opposite knee rises. Whether you feel the opposite knee on the masik, or the foot on the side of the stroke on the footrest, first, depends largely on the construction of the kayak, particularly the height of the masik.
To segue into the main discussion about footpeg placement – there’s a lot of personal variation at work, so I wouldn’t take Nigel’s words too seriously. Find what works for you. The key is to paddle with good posture and in comfort, while being able to apply body-English to the kayak. I sometimes vary the footpegs to the water conditions – my surf kayaks have much closer footpegs than my rolling kayak or touring kayak.
Greg Stamer
Thank You!
You know... A bit of paddling and playing with different positions works better to inform than a thousand words here. Variations in body types and equipment void any statement of absolute uniformity. Any attempt at uniformity is just conformity and "group think" in a lot of cases.
sing
PS. Even more extreme than the surf kayak, when on a waveski, both knees are quite bent.
Nope---- I’m the other way.
I’m 100% newbie with less than 10 hours in my Sea Lion.
I can keep my feet on the pegs, knees on the pads, and run the rudder. I kinda think I may be to close. I hear that too much pressure on the foot pegs in the poly sea lion may not be a good thing.
My problem is my feet going to sleep on me.
I was doing fine with my footpegs out
but read this thread and I’ll be damned if my legs didn’t start to hurt!
Jewels, thanks
There are numerous “jewels” of advice in this thread. very interesting indeed. Thank you. I will print it out and reread slowly.
What sounded really wrong…
...at first read may not be so far off. I checked my foamed bulkhead placements and what has evolved to my liking is not far from the guidelines posted..
Now I have starting points...
G.Stamer, thanks for posting that
I just picked up a Strand boat 2 weeks ago and it def. has a footrest, and as you said I wont have to mini-cell out that area for more foot placement because the deck beam does provide a 1000 times more area for my feet to brace off of than a yakima footpeg…for a second there I doubted I had obtained a true Greenland kayak
So…
how far should the footpegs be out on a canoe then? jk
Just the opposite
I’ve seen many beginners who have their footpegs set too close. Classic symptoms of that are sore feet and a sore back from being wedged in too tightly.
loose legs=sore back
Bent legs = paddling all day with no back problems. Well, thats' been my limited experience anyways. I like a solid contact with the pegs and very little play available to me. I find that when I try to sit with loose, or even worse, straight legs my back gets messed up quickly and my body can twist around in the seat making my forward stroke very inefficient. I get tired far quicker. I can only imagine that this would be very basic instruction at the beginner level?
I prefer to have the foot pegs positioned so that my knees and thighs are making contact with the boat. I feel like this gives me a better long distance paddling position and better boat control by allowing to use my whole body to paddle. For me, bad leg postion could would inhibit a lengthy trip. Sloppy legs = sloppy torso rotation = body fatigue = trip over.
I think I get kind of anal about my feet position. One click closer and the foot pegs are way to close and uncomfortable. One click further away and my legs are noticeably loose and I cant stand it.
After 25-30 miles wearing no shoes my feet do get a little sore at times. Rookie mistake I know.
I see quite a few newbies trying to get all straight legged thinking they will be more comfortable but if they want to paddle anywhere I suggest that they position their foot pegs properly. I guess if one doesn't paddle hard it makes much less of a difference.
ps. I would guess that of all the things a paddler could do to make capsizing more likely, paddling a crappy fitting boat would be right up there.