I don’t hate any paddle…
…as it’s purely a personal preference and we’re all entitled to use whatever we like. OTOH, I don’t like seeing misleading information that may cause someone to make an inappropriate equipment choice that they might regret. No paddle is perfect for everyone, but if a wing suit your need, more power to ya.
The point of my rebuttal was to draw the distinction between the attributes of the paddle and those that are functions of skill and fitness. One can achieve skill and fitness with any paddle. I think it’s important that the pros and cons both be discussed.
In fairness, I often point out that my personal paddle preference - the GP - has serious limitations when used in shallow, bony conditions (rock gardens, for example) and it’s not the ideal tool for surf play, either. And of course, a wing is ~6% faster than a GP. Although plenty of companies make them, few retailers stock more than a token selection (if any), so finding the right one can be difficult.
I said I was a wing Paddle advocate
I thought I made it pretty clear that I was a wing paddle advocate and painting a very pro-wing perspective. That being said, I honestly do not think I distorted the facts. I believe everything I wrote because I lived it. I made the transition. I am not a fit athlete. I am an overweight shmoo. Yet I will paddle further and faster on my first day in the spring than most arm paddlers will in the prime of the season. Why? Becasue of the technique the wing paddle allowed me to develop.
I honestly believe the wing paddle will lead one to develop an incredibly powerful technique, that I just have not seen the Euro or Greenland paddler match. The wing is not a one-trick pony either. I can do anything I ever did with my euro paddle. Check that. The wing will not tolerate bad technique. That is something my Euro blade did better.
Sure, if you want to use other muscle groups like your arms and shoulders and the weak joints associated with them, then you can use a Greenland paddle or Euro paddle. I suppose someone might have a reason to prefer using small muscle groups, but I don’t see the point.
Where do you see your paddling in a year or two? What are your objectives? How does averageing around 6+ mph all day long sound? How about easily catching ocean waves to speeds in excess of 15 mph? How about making a point of seeking out the areas where the big waves shoal up for an afternoon of surfing runs. Waves not good there, then try the next spot only about 5 miles away. Sea kayaking does not have to be the fuddy-duddy activity that most perceive it to be.
A whole new world of speed, range and stability opens up to you if you commit to a wing paddle and the vastly more powerful technique it encourages. Like I said, the majority of people will never even try a wing. The industry is stacked up against it. But if
paddles
Thanks a lot chaps. Ive been given the opportunity to try some new Ainsworth designs, Various touring/rec models.plastic glass and carbon,now ive got a better insight into shaft shapes,i think ive got a decent idea where to start,il just go over a few of the posts again, brush up on a few strokes ,dodgy pun
Eric Nyre
The mystic psychic, hows my trip going to go? or am i better off not knowing,LOL,yes assuming !! your right i may be using a tsunami 120/125,im a whippet like built 5 ft 6", but im as big as a giant inside,so dont let the exterior fool you,im about 11 stone , after being out in the torrential rain,with heavy boots on,
It’s one thing to “advocate”…
…but quite another to distort the facts and attribute things to the paddle that are simply inappropriate or untrue. I am certainly an “advocate” of Greenland paddles, but I’m also a realist and understand that they’re not ideal for everyone and that they have limitations. I don’t attribute skill or fitness related benefits to the paddle, as the paddle has nothing to do with them. They are a function of the PADDLER and are paddle-independent. Apparently, you don’t know any extremely strong Euro or GP users, but I do and I can assure you that they exist.
You’re happy with your wing and it has improved your paddling, which is a terrific outcome for you. Others can realize similar benefits without using a wing paddle. They also won’t have to live with the limitations of the wing design.
Choose your weapon and hit the water!
Good Passion on P.Net
It certainly is refreshing to see some passion here on the P.Net Message boards.
I’ve found the paddling.net message boards rather dull lately. It used to be the place to come to to get into serious discussions about real paddling related issues. Now it seems so tough to find a subject worth sinking one’s teeth into. I’ve been trying to understand why this is. The best explanation I can come up with is this board reflects the general trend of paddling - a move toward inexpensive plastic, short, fat, boring, “kayaks.”
For instance, this discussion of the differences beteween Wing, Euro & Greenland paddles means diddly-poop to the guy who just bought a 10 ft plastic “kayak” at Dick’s Sporting Goods for $200. He is probably more interested in where to find a $20 paddle. The Plethora of Pungo Paddlers (my girlfriend is one) could care less about the speed advantages of using a full-time rudder vs. skeg. They are probably more interested in why there is only one drink holder in the cockpit when there is room for more.
Anyway, I remember the good ol’ days when there were heated discussions on P.net. Bynstrom was there 5 - 10 years ago when sea kayaking was still about paddling in the sea. Its good to see a few serious paddlers still lurking around P.net for the occasional opportunity have a passionate discussion about what used to be important issues to sea kayakers.
By the way, anyone know the best way to paint a pink plastic Pungo? Please do not reply with a serious answer 
with
a cheep brush, one that gives up it’s bristles with ease 
best wishes
Roy
Efficiency
When I tried a wing, it seemed to be more efficient with less cavitation. My Euro (ONNO FAST Tour model) has some turbulent water behind it as I pull it through the water. The Wing seemed to have less/non-existant amount of this.
I do Attribute Skill to Paddle Type
In my original post I said that the wing paddle will force one to develop good technique that uses large muscle groups. I DO attribute this technique improvement to the wing paddle. The wing paddle encourages good technique and will punish you for using poor technique. It is the only type of paddle that I am aware of that will make such a positive difference on one’s technique.
You do not attribute improved technique with the type of paddle because the Euro or Greenland paddles will passively go through the water in whatever way the paddler chooses to move them. They like being pulled straight back paralell with the hull just as every arm paddler does. In some cases the paddle designers have built in additional crutches, like dihedral or bent shafts, which make the act of pulling straight back with ones arms even easier.
In general, euro and greenland paddles encourage an arm-based technique. That does not mean a dedicated paddler will overcome the natural tendency of the paddle to develop a strong torso roatation technique, but I have rarely seen it. The wing paddle, on the other hand, DOES encourage torso rotation and punishes arm pulling.
So it is clear to me and everyone else that has committed to a wing paddle that the type of paddle can affect one’s technique. And the technique the wing paddle encourages will result in significant improvements in speed, distance, fitness and increased stability. This leads to the paddler choosing a faster skinnier kayak which then leads to even another significant improvement in speed & distance.
This type of revolutionary improvement in performance is only a couple seasons away for a paddler that finds such things appealing. You don’t have to be a racer. You don’t have to be fit. You just need to want a more extreme paddling experience. This is an experience where you have the power and speed that allows you to exploit the ocean. You will seek out bigger water becasue you will have the tools to steal energy from the waves. You will be able to maneuver on waves by surfing diagonally and even cutting back to cath the next faster wave you spotted coming over your shoulder. Its a whole new game where you are in charge of the sea, not reacting to it.
I DO believe the wing paddle will encourage a technique that leads to this type of aggressive paddling if you have the personality for it. I also believe that the Greenland paddle has attributes (bouyancy) appreciated by the guy who likes to sit in one place and practice exotic rolls and braces. The GP also appeals to the DIY or traditional type of personalty. The euro paddle has attributes that appeals to the paddler that wants one paddle that can do it all at a level he thinks is satisfactory.
If you have a more extreme or fitness minded personality, the wing paddle is the only paddle that can dramatically change one’s technique to meet these golas due to the attributes of the paddle itself. This, I do believe.
Both great perspectives
Between both of you guys I think it sums it up nicely.
Everything J says about the wing is true enough - but I do think it would be a service to beginners to emphasize that some dedication is required to develop the technique (even to a basic level) and fitness (not much required - but it DOES work different muscles and needs to be built up) - to actually experience the benefits as envyabull describes them. I have a wing - I rarely use it - and it beats the crap out of me because of this. If I made myself paddle with it more (as in nearly exclusively for a while) that would change.
Bnystrom’s posts are equally true. Any “advantages” need to be considered in context.
To that end - I think envyabull (still) has some serious misconceptions about Greenland paddles - (how may GP miles J?) as these too will penalize arm paddling and rely on core to use effectively. Not to the extent of the wing visually, and not in the same way - as it is a much more versatile paddle - but also not as forgiving of bad technique as a euro (not saying a euro encourages this, just easier to sort of do “whatever” with one - plus EP gets the bulk of the bad rap as the bulk of new paddlers use them! ).
Side note: Wing users tend to be able to get a decent GP stroke quicker than EP users. Just show them the hand position and the rest just sort of happens - cant, enhanced bite, and all. They are used to letting the paddle do it’s thing. Of course few wing paddlers have much interest in GP - which makes sense as they already have a paddle good at what they need. EP users tend to take longer to adjust to GP and have more to unlearn. They tend to be used to making the paddle do what they want - which is not always optimal.
As for wing’s speed advantage - it is not free. It takes adaptation (aka TRAINING time) to be able to get that in reliable/useful amounts. If for argument’s sake I buy into the 6% gain (will be different for all users) - a would attribute 2/3 of that to better technique (mostly core rotation and catch/release differences) and just 1/3 to the paddle design (as that mostly reinforces/supports the technique). All the same thing I suppose…
I have one paddle that sort of splits the difference. A sort of Frankenstein deal that requires a wing stroke/hand spacing - and has spooned blades - but much easier on the body. It will “catch a crab” if technique is off. Has many features common to Aleuts and GPs too - some symmetry - decent to roll/scull with - doesn’t catch wind. Essentially it’s an unfeathered paddle with long narrow parallel edge spoon blades with no twist (a bit more to it - shape of blades and loom matters for this to work). It was an experiment that turned out to work very well, and I now have 3 favorite paddles. I find it fast and friendly - but Wing and Greenland paddle users would likely BOTH hate it (I have a boat design to match with similar marketing issues)! Euro users would probably curse it out loud - likely during a swim L
GP does NOT…
… like being pulled straight OR favor arm paddling.
When people advising those new to GP that they will probably have to “unlearn some euro paddle habits” before the GP will really begin to work well for them (anything will move a kayak) this is part of what they are getting at. As with wing, it REALLY helps to commit to a GP exclusively for a few months to counter this.
FWIW - Wing moves straight too - It’s just not PARALLEL to the kayak. The flare is still in a straight line. Result is an angle of attack of teh balde to the water vs. a perpendicular pure drag mode. Even if GP stroke WAS parallel (sometimes is/sometimes not) it achieves a very similar thing IN THE WATER via blade angle.
Like a wing, a GP requires you let the paddle do it’s thing to a great extent if you want to get much out of it. It “flies” in winglike ways - just not limited to one specific way as with the wing. If you try to force it to do otherwise you will only succeed in churning water, losing speed, adding flutter, etc. Arm paddling all but ensures you will get poor support and poor speed from a GP. Like a wing, it punishes poor technique and rewards good technique - IF you let it.
Another thing they have in common (and again in slightly different ways) - both work better the narrower the beam gets.
You know your stuff on wings - but the points you keep making about GP are flat out wrong and only detract from your otherwise spot on (if a bit myopic - but understandably so) posts. At least you’re not going on about GP stroke being “low and slow”! L
PS - Tell me how my carbon GP (still my fav GP) - same weight/price as my EPIC wing - that I bought to use with Kevlar sea kayaks (first a Heritage Kevlar SOT - then a plumb bowed QCC!) - is appealing to my DIY/traditional personality? The GP did get me interested in those things later on - but those things are NOT what drew me to the GP in the first place and are NOT why I continue to choose to use it.
If you’re getting aeration…
...it's more than likely due to a flaw in your technique (FYI, paddles can't "cavitate", but high speed propellers can). Typically it's caused by starting to pull on the paddle before the blade is fully submerged. Since a Euro paddle works primarily through drag, it will be more prone to aeration than a wing or GP, which work with a combination of lift and drag, assuming correct technique for each.