I guess want I'm say is, this guy has mastered the forward stroke from the aspects of acceleration and power transmission. I see things that I do understand and some that I don't. But in either case I must remember that I'm watching an expert and so my lack of understanding doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong. Instead, I take it as an indication that I have more to learn, more to understand.
How is it, when presented with such an example of excellence, we tend to see what we perceive as faults, even if we haven't the frame of reference to understand what's really happening? It's more advantageous, I think, to accept this as an impressive example of the forward stroke and expand our models to accept this example rather than to dismiss this as a specific example that has no relevance to other disciplines.
I'd love to analyze this guy's stroke in detail but all I have available is this single perspective. From this clip I can see several things:
Hip rotation to beat the band
a paddle shaft held parallel to the shoulders (paddler's box) during the power phase
elbows always in front of the torso, arms always open
neutral wrist position throughout the stroke
significant verticality of the paddle shaft
a stroke shape the sends the blade straight out away from the boat
hand extension (dry-side) well past the wet-side gunwales
minimal arm involvement while the power is being applied
flawless torso/arm alignment at the release
The elbow stuff that you see as arm paddling I see as the natural result of an effort to extend the catch as far forward as his body permits. Watch how the dry arm extends fully until the paddle tip hits the water. Then a quick set of the blade by flexing the arm back into the "paddler's box", then the power is applied right through until the blade breaks the surface of the water.
For learning and growth to occur, we must first accept the learning and growth is possible, then we must look for opportunities. Opportunities to learn are everywhere, it's how we process these opportunities that makes all the difference. I've always modeled my forward stroke on sprinter's wing paddle strokes. This example give me new inspiration to push my forward stroke further.
here These videos should help someone visualize forward stroke rotation and leg work. Check the “Ergometrimelonnan tekniikka” videos to really see the whole body in motion.
"lack of understanding doesn't necessarily mean something is wrong."
No one reaches such an international level by luck or using a faulty forward stroke. By appreciating his mastered form we all might learn something, and recreational/touring paddlers are the ones that might learn the most.
Geez… never said his stroke was faulty So, please reread my posts and tell me if I ever was critical of his stroke. Nor did I deny that (a) I had a lot to learn; (b) I could learn from this example. That wasn’t under discussion (I thought). If you can find any of that in my posts, I will happily eat crow right here on the forum. And, is it inherently critical to say he’s using his shoulders and even arms? I don’t think so, and I’ll get to that in a minute.
Anyway, my main point was: IMHO an Olympic sprinter’s stroke is ~not~ the proper model for a normal (non-racing) guy (who started this thread) wanting to spare a bum shoulder.
But I’ll go even farther. If someone wants to run a footrace marathon or 10k would you advise him to use a 100-meter dash technique – explode off the blocks, pump hands like crazy, take huge, quick, long strides, etc. I don’t know much about running, but I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t. He’d wear himself out in, well, 100 meters, with 9900 meters to go. It’s gotta be likewise for kayaking – not just intensity but also structure of the stroke. Yes, we (and I) can learn plenty from a sprint racer’s stroke for our own touring stroke. But frankly, a better model would be a marathon racer-- like Brent Reitz. Looking at the sprinter, there are some things that are just bound to be inappropriate for marathon or its recreational equivalent, touring. And one of them I’d guess, is the use of muscles other than the lower torso for propulsion.
So, his paddle is in the water and he flexes his shoulder. Why would he ~not~ apply power from the shoulder at that point, with the paddle moving a foot or more in the water and, it seems to me (arguable, of course) that the blade and body mechanics are efficient at that point? He’d be nuts not to – what’s he got to lose in a 500m sprint? But if he’s in for the long haul (or sparing a bad shoulder) he wouldn’t, because shoulder and arm muscles are going to wear out a lot faster than lower torso muscles. He needs to pace himself and save the shoulder and arm for the final sprint if the race is close.
So, just saying that a guy is using shoulder and arm muscles is not, in itself, a criticism. In fact, for a sprinter, it may be the opposite. I haven’t yet heard any convincing reason that a sprinter should ~not~ use shoulder and even arm at some points in the stroke (but I’m still open to it). And, in fact, I still think those two frames show exactly that happening.
Hey, it’s a criticism of a touring stroke to say that the elbow gets bent 90 degrees – I had an instructor who used that as a diagnostic sign. So is it criticism to post a picture that shows a sprinter’s elbow bent 90 degrees? I think not.
Anyway, I’ve been viewing frames of that video back and forth for a while trying to understand it. Anybody else actually analyzing it like that? Or is it easier fun to just tee off on somebody trying to have a logical, nuanced discussion?
> The elbow stuff that you see as arm paddling I see
> as the natural result of an effort to extend the
> catch as far forward as his body permits. Watch
> how the dry arm extends fully until the paddle tip
> hits the water. Then a quick set of the blade by
> flexing the arm back into the "paddler's box",
> then the power is applied right through until the
> blade breaks the surface of the water.
So, why extend the catch as far forward as possible if you don't get some power from pulling it back? IOW, what we see in those frames is some power being applied from the shoulder, and maybe even from the arms, as he gets the paddle into "paddler's box" position for a torso-only pull. Why not?
What I do, for what its worth, as I try to master both the far-forward plant and paddling from the hips (that is, what's commonly called torso rotation), is plant way forward, even jab the blade a little as Reitz suggests, and then start pulling immediately with the hips/torso.
But what I see in those Vereckei frames right after the plant is pulling as much with the shoulder as the body -- and why not? It may well be more efficient at that stage of the stroke. In fact, I will try it myself.