Sandpiper
How does the Yellowstone compare to the Sandpiper? I have a Sandpiper and I love it,I have a Yellowstone solo on order right now and I have never paddled one.
Thanks
Mike
Well…I’m not an expert…
– Last Updated: Jan-19-06 5:22 PM EST –
Well......I'm not an expert, but this past weekend on the St. Francis, I talked to someone more expert than me.
I recently sold a whitewater canoe I'd been using over 6 years. My new one is a foot shorter,different width, lighter, and has a very different hull shape. I am slowly adjusting to the new one, but I still need some paddling time in the new one before I'll feel "really" comfortable & in control.
In places where there are strong cross currents below a drop, or where I'm dropping into highly aerated water from height, there is a big difference in the handling of the two boats. In the new boat; my lines have to be more precise, and it will respond quicker to knee pressure, and body lean than the older, longer, heavier boat.
Expert's advice #1 Keep your butt on the saddle/seat; I was leaning forward, trying to get a monster pull on one last power stroke, right before going over the drop. When I did that, my weight was on my knees; thus only 2 points of contact, instead of 3, and the result was poor balance. With extra forward momentum, whatever was going to happen would happen faster, for better or worse. Usually not good! #2 Don't lean back at the end of the power stroke, trying to get that little extra bit of pull. When you lean back, you free up the bow a little more than if you were sitting up straight, with three points of contact. Lean back on the saddle & your knees lose contact, even with tight thigh straps. Result; bow in the air & ready to roam & you losing 2 points of contact.Not good! #3 It is more difficult to hit a good brace, or any stroke correctly when you're leaning backwards & your knees are loose, or you're up on your knees & your butt is in the air.#4 Practice the j-lean, practice the j-lean, practice the j-lean. We're talking muscle memory practice; "become one with your boat young Jedi".
#5 Spent as much time as possible in your new boat; you will improve with time.
I think that advice will be helpful with whatever canoe you paddle; whether you paddle lakes, flatwater rivers or whitewater, and particularly if you have recently switched to a boat of different length, weight, width, and hull shape.
BOB
What they said…
Clarion and Fat Elmo are right. I tripped the Current R. in my Yellowstone and had her a little bow heavy at first. Handled like crap. Moved a few bags to the stern, got her trimmed right and she was fine from then on.
JK
A few comparisons
come to mind. The Sandpiper is lighter. The hull is flatter and oil cans. I have not experienced oilcanning in the Yellowstone. Both are very maneuverable, but I would probably choose the Sandpiper in very tight, twisty creeks. The Yellowstone is faster and cruises between strokes. The Sandpiper “tops out” quickly and also seems to “put on the breaks” in wave trains. This would give the Yellowstone the edge in streams with long pools and short riffle sections that are characteristic of many Ozark and Midwestern streams and river.
strong current?
jjoven,
You’ve never seen anybody get blow their angle in a back ferry and be spun around? Or be unable to generate enough backward speed and drift helplessly into the outside of the bend.
In strong currents, even in class II rapids, a back ferry can be a gamble.
But on these gentle bends, I definitely agree it’s an attractive alternative and something to try. It worked for Bill Mason.
P.
Bob - new thread
give us a thread on comparing the 2 boats you’re talking about. What have you changed from and to, and what are the adjustments/observations?
P.
Oilcanning?
My Sandpiper is solid as a rock,I removed the seat and added a kneeling thwart and a pad on the floor.I wonder if you got a thin one.I look forward to paddling my new Yellowstone but it wont be in untill May
New thread…
– Last Updated: Jan-19-06 10:16 PM EST –
I think I'll leave the new thread/boat comparison to someone else. Have never done a review. The problem I have with boat reviews is too many people don't want to publicly admit they bought barges, or a rocket that is out of their league. Consequently, we see skewed ratings; for every rating of 5, you'll see twenty-five 9s or 10s. And how does anyone know who these reviewers are? Is a paddler that's a beginner capable of competently rating any boat as a 10 or a 5? Does an expert paddler rate a boat a 5, when that boat would be great for a beginner?
Anyway, I paddled a Mad River Outrage X for about 6 years. This summer I bought a new Mohawk Probe 12 II. Prior to taking the Probe on any real whitewater, I only had the opportunity to check it out on a short flatwater river trip, a whitewater run with extremely low water(we were in a drought), and a day on a nearby lake, attempting to learn(messing around) to roll. Then wham! I spent 3 days in a row doing some class 2+ and class 3 water. Since August I have had one opportunity for a class 2+/class 3 run. The boat change has been an adjustment. Having spent 6 years in the Outrage X, and then strapping on a Probe 12II has been, let us say, unique.
Not sure I can compare a boat I paddled for 6 years to one I've owned for 6 months, and used for it's intended purpose a total of 4 days. I will say this; I think the Outrage X is a great big water boat for a 250 pounder. If I could justify having 2 whitewater boats, I'd probably have kept it. On the other hand; the Probe 12 II will probably be hanging in my garage when I quit paddling whitewater.
For the record; I draw the line at what I consider to be class 3. I am not & never will be a class 4 paddler. For every mile I paddle each year in my whitewater boat, I paddle 50 miles in one of many solo boats I own, on class 1 & 2 water.
BOB
This may be relevant too
– Last Updated: Jan-19-06 11:02 PM EST –
Okay, I skimmed over the current posts and see some pretty good advice. There's one other thing you might be doing, and I can't tell from what you wrote if this applies, but it is a really common practice. You may be aligning the canoe with the river as you go around the bend in the same manner as you would steer a car around a curve in the road. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but you can usually save a lot of energy and reduce or eliminate the need to fight that eddy by NOT assuming that the boat must be lined up with your direction of travel. Keeping your boat pointed EXACTLY downriver (or pointed at any other short-term destination) is a common tendency, but it's often not the best way unless you are really in a hurry and don't mind burning energy.
Example: Let's say the river ahead makes a pronounced turn to the right. As has been pointed out already, when you get spun so that the stern gets pulled off toward the left, it is because the stern ends up in water that is just a little faster than the water occupied by the bow, and this WILL happen if you keep the boat lined-up with the river channel. So why fight it? As you approach that right-hand turn, keep the boat pointed a little to the *left* of your actual direction of travel, a little toward the outside bank instead of straight downstream. You won't head toward the outside bank or "go off the road" as a result unless you pour on the power at this point. In this position, your bow will be in the faster water instead of your stern, so the boat actually tends to self-correct as you round the bend, and keeping the boat under control now requires only minimal effort. With the right corrective strokes (what's right depends on the situation - but some have been described already), the boat will remain "pointed off-target" for part of the curve, and will tend to spin back "on-target" as you leave the curve, instead of the stern trying to overtake you as you leave the curve as is happening to you right now.
By the way, the current's affect on your boat if you round a bend as described here will be much more subtle than what you are experiencing now, so the amount of "off-target" angle you need is not much. That's because the amount of "grip" those differential current speeds (the eddy) have on your boat will decrease as the boat is pivoted, whereas in the situation you describe, the affect of differential current speeds is self-exaggerating, and it gets worse and worse the more the boat gets spun.
You can usually power your way through the situation you describe, and doing so with the proper corrective strokes will do the job just fine, but taking advantage of what the river is trying to do saves a bunch of work. Just remember that you don't always have to point your bow in the direction you want to go. On curves, your direction of travel is often best dictated by current patterns and how they affect your boat, rather than by simply "aiming the boat". To me, this is part of the magic of paddling rivers - the whole process is much more dynamic and flexible than driving a car or other wheeled machine.
thanks
Thanks Bob, I was too curious to know what boats you were talking about. Interesting, relatively speaking I think of the Outrages and Probes as fairly similar, wish I had more chance to paddle a 12II.
Amen to avoiding class 4. I’m with you.
P.
clear
Wow, GBG, congrats a clear description of something that could be hard to describe.
Gremmie, good luck stringing all this together in some useful trials!
P.
WOW is right
that was what I was trying to say above…
Thanks
I just looked above and found the passage you are talking about. I think I must have skimmed right past that paragraph as I was trying to get the gist of what everyone had said so far, but I’ll give you credit now for mentioning the concept first.