the auto policy
was an analogy—my point is I bet you dollars to donuts that the marine endorsement doesn’t cover you from lawsuits filed by people who you let use your boat against you. Most of those endorsements only cover suits by third parties against you and those who you lend your boat to. both you and the lendee are covered insureds and as such are excluded from coverage for your own suits. If your agent says other wise, have him put it in a letter to you that way you will be protected if something does happen.
Short and sweet
I agree with you. If I think someone might be inclined to sue me over the consequences of his own actions, I won’t loan him anything. Can’t live in fear of every little thing but I’m not going to make myself a target, either.
Not that long ago I was shocked to hear someone say they wished they’d sued a friend over an accident that had occurred on the friend’s property. So even “friends” can get greedy.
Anyone here ever been sued over a boat?
Know anyone who has ever been sued over loaning a boat … as a private party?
ok CD
I will just pee on your lawn
Paul
nope
Jon
– Last Updated: Apr-30-08 11:46 AM EST –
if it was an analogy it wasn't a good one. As for your ending paragraph, I find it very illogical and downright un-lawyerly that you would presume to know more about a document (my endorsement) that you've never seen than would I who have read it word for word several times and discussed it at length with my agent.
BTW this same agency is highly credentialled, has the highest rating in the state, and has covered all my insurance needs for over 20 years flawlessly & cannot be beat premium wise, either.
That being said, peace. I have no desire to belabor the point. And keep the donuts, they're just more saturated fat to work off ;-)
low risk
the process of building a kayak self-selects assholes out of the picture because of the personal investment in the construction. Basically any structurual flaw can be layed in the hands of the builder, if there’s a design flaw that can lead to death or injury usually it’s a problem that is solved before it gets to that stage.
For example the original CLC Chesapeakes that were built in the late 90’s with inadequate deck/hatch reinforcement pretty much guranteed aft hatch/deck failure in rough use if a 235lb paddler performed a paddlefloat or assisted rescue repeatedly. But most builders didn’t take them into rough conditions and those that did usually reinforced them more. Problem solved, no lawsuits.
BB, if I slip in it and fall, I know you
no problem
– Last Updated: Apr-30-08 12:55 PM EST –
like most lawyers I know everything about everything---:) and if your agent said the endorsement would cover suits brought against you by people you had lent your boats to, then he or she should have no problem saying that in writing---if he or she won't, that will tell you something---
BTW I'm actually a recovering lawyer (now an administrative judge)--spent 18 years representing insurance companies and advising them on coverage issues--which really means that I told them how to weasel out of their insurance policies by denying coverage(after they had accepted the premium and issued the policy)and now I'll shut up about it after all its really none of my business---have a great day :)
well, yup, there ya go
that proves a lot, considering what a huge statistical sample this board is ;-D
ok then
I will just aim for the door handle
P
Why this question?
– Last Updated: May-01-08 8:46 AM EST –
Do you have someone who has approached you about borrowing your post? Or is it academic, what if?
Like many above, we don't have others in our boats unless we are there with them. And if newbies trying to get a handle on what a kayak is about, usually in a quiet pond where neither the boat nor the paddler can start going downriver.
I would lend any one of my kayaks
or canoes to any one of my “friends”, as long as I thought they were qualified to handle the particular boat.
Note: I said “friends”
“Friends” are just that, and if you don’t think you could trust them, then they are not “friends”, but acquaintances.
Just this morning I got a request from a “friend” for a loaner boat for his college age son, and the “liability” concern never even entered my mind.
Cheers,
JackL
you talkin to me??
– Last Updated: May-01-08 10:04 AM EST –
if not then never mind if so I simply answered the question---I never would be sued for lending my boat out because I never lend it. No real need to where I live, almost everyone has a boat.
But to go on to what your question really concerns, a large statistical sample, I've been a paddler for over twenty years and a sea kayak guide for 4. As I said above I'm also a recovering lawyer. I have heard of Maine cases where the survivors of deceased sea kayak renters have sued the owners but it is always involving a commercial renter(or a guide service).
In the state of Maine where I live, I've never heard of one private citizen suing another because of negligent lending(non commercial) of a sea kayak or for that matter any other type of watercraft. And Maine has a relativly small legal community---and a lot of watercraft. I probably would have heard about such a case. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen in other jurisdications though.
Interesting
In one breath we are telling the new guys looking for a new boat to go try as many as possible and now we are basically saying you should never allow anyone (especially a newbie) to borrow your boat.
I think the chances of one individual suing another is quite slim and the reward of introducing someone to paddling, is well worth the risk. This applies to reasonable people with reasonable expectations. If a new guy wants to borrow my 14 ft kayak for class IV rapids, I would obviously not let him go kill himself. Well, if he really got on my nerves, I might '-)
jim
Actually bigger than you think …
A lot of us belong to organizations and visit events and have contacts with literally hundreds of kayaykers. Surf Kayakers and whitewater kayakers loan boats all the time to play in very dangerous conditions. I know of people who have been injured in loaned boats. I have never heard of anyone being sued for loaning a boat to a private party.
Would I loan my boats to an attorney or a boy scout troop, no. But I don’t think there is any data out there to say this is even a minor issue.
How about renting?
A paddler died (I believe) last year or the season before when he was unable to pop the spray skirt and wet exit a rental kayak. Was it in MA? The guys wife was on a rampage trying to get legislation passed that all renters had to do a wet exit or instructed in doing one before they can rent a kayak. I believe she sued the rental Co. I never heard anything more on it. So, my word of advice to anyone who wants to loan their kayak to a newbe - don’t give them a spray skirt unless it’s a nylon that’s so loose it is falling off half the time. These things do happen even though they don’t often make the front page. The first skill you learn with kayak lessons is doing a wet exit and many times the paddlers are quite nervous.
I had a guy once try my wood OI and first thing he does is head straight out about 500 yards and capazises. He took a long, long time to come to the surface. He came up gasping and choking and here I am on shore helpless (like a fool) That was the last time a spray skirt went on a trial unless theyÊshowed me they had skills.
It was two or three years ago
In Buzzard’s bay----southeastern mass–the irony of the incident was the paddler was in a high end fiberglass sea kayak with a neoprene skirt—the combination of the fiberglass and the neoprene make for a really snug seal. From what I read the guide had him out in about 15 seconds and he was on top of the water, breathing and talking, then went into cardiac arrest.
Had it been an RM boat with a nylon skirt he probably just would have fallen out but still may have had the cardiac incident. There were at least two bills introduced afterwards but neither passed the legislature due to pressure by the paddling community.
It was in a Sea Kayaker Magazine article
The outfitter changed their name after that, and when I went to their website I found nothing about lessons other than corporate trips. So that little episode that was partly bad luck (getting a student with a cardio problem) may have forced them to change their business in other ways than just the name. I do think it’s a good idea to practice wet exits before going out, though. Wet exits are physically a piece of cake but the psychological block could be huge.
Years ago I talked with a paddler who worked as a kayak guide. He told me he had had one client on a river trip die, also due to heart problems. Trouble is, when the heart attack occurs under water, the existing cardio problem gets less notice than the circumstances under which it occurred, and people look around for someone else to blame.
I agree
that wet exits as well as assisted re-entries would be a good thing to practice before any trip, even a guided one. The problem is that requirement would really discourage many people from going(and paying) for guided trips–I don’t have a dog in that fight but I know that the owner of the business I’ve guided for wouldn’t like it.