PFD and paddle length

Advice
#21

(H) The Harmony paddle I bought as a spare has a lever lock and a threaded screw to tighten the cam lock. Its a paddle I wouldn’t even give away, because it flexes, the screw falls out, the lump in the middle prevents your hand moving freely, the blades just don’t work for me.

(AB SR) The Aqua Bound Sting Ray (yellow plastic), probably a fiberglass (possible carbon) shaft, is heavy; the silver release button protrudes. This is a fair paddle, but its heavy with a heavy swing weight.

(W C) The Camano (red 100.7 sq inch blade), carbon shaft w/ fiberglass blades similar to the Little Dipper. Light with nice swing weight. The button protrudes, but I think they now have flush buttons.

(W LD) THE Little Dipper (light blue 86 sq in blade), carbon shaft w/fiberglass blades, similar to Camano. Flush button

(W K) Kalliste (black 99.7 sq inch blade) all carbon, 23 oz [actual wight of 240cm paddle is 27 oz]. Similar to Werner Cyprus and Ikelos. Lightest with lightest swing weight. Flush button.

View of the joints:

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Front/back view:

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Side view:

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Top view:

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@Buffalo_Alice I agree that the price of the Hybrid Aqua Bound paddles is hard to pass up. The Ray line is one of the most common and favored paddle for performance fir the price. It really depends on what you hope to gain from the paddle, how far you paddle, your cadence and how transparent you want the stroke to be.

I bought the Little Dipper for my grand daughters, but it doesn’t have enough blade area for their liking. If you want a Euro style blade that’s essier on your joints, the Little Dipper is a great paddle; however, don’t expect speed.

The way I test swing weight is by holding the center of the paddle with one hand and torque it up and down to see how easy it is to control and stop at the end of the rotation. Notice the back and front of the blades. Anything that interrupts the flow will cause drag, but that doesn’t mean a clean blade won’t create other issues. The longer the paddle, the less control you have, and the longer the distance between strokes.

#22

Thanks so much for the pics; very kind of you.
I just bought an Accent Energy Hybrid 220 cm for my grand daughter because her Werner Sprite 200 cm is getting small. REI presently has them for $82 with no extra cost shipping. It should be here Thursday. It has a low-angle blade, but I can still see how it works length-wise in my Magic. It will also give me a chance to check out their “Advantage Grip Technology”, of which I am somewhat skeptical.
I’ve been using an older, heavier (36 oz), 230 cm bent shaft Camano in the Magic. It’s for mid-low angle paddling, but a little long for high-angle. If 220 cm seems right, I’ll go for one with a high angle blade and a little less surface area than the Camano - maybe 615 cm2 vs the Camano’s 650.
As I don’t need carbon, my choice so far is between the Werner Shuna, Aqua Bound Whiskey and two from Accent, the Outback and the Fit (it the Accent grips turn me off, then it’s between the other two). I’m intrigued by the Fit; it has a full foam core , smooth front and back surfaces, and a low swing weight according to an Accent tech I spoke with. All sounds good, but it’s nearly $400 and my local dealer doesn’t have one in stock to check out. That’s a chunk of change to drop without a hands-on opportunity.
Thanks again for the pics, much appreciated.

#23

I like a smooth shaft without any obstructions to interfere with hand placement on the shaft. That way your hands can move anywhere for sweeps etc. I also like the premium Werners for their clean front and back face. Notice any similarities between the two paddles.

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The shaft attachment is less of an issue in high angle, but it’s very disruptive for low angle. I don’t like high angle because my shoukder doesn’t rotate well, but also because it reminds me of shoving and throwing dirt using a paddle hold on the shovel handle . . . Think about that . . . It’s a hard way to move dirt, or push a boat.

#24

Ooh, where d’ya get that cool orange-ish
single blade?

#25

BTW, it’s easier to shovel dirt by putting the blade close to your body and applying vertical downward pressure than it is to reach out and try to get a scoopful of dirt.

1 Like
#26

That’s my power paddle. Use that when the tide is out.

#27

Mine is black. I like yours better.

#28

That’s why my shovel is rusty. Shoveling dirt is hard. Too technical.

#29

Given to him when he left the chain gang. :laughing:

2 Likes
#30

I enjoyed shoveling dirt as a laborer durin school and digging trenches so my backyard would drain.

1 Like
#31

Whenever I brought home a bad report card, or should I say when I brought home a report card, my father would ask if I wanted to work for the rest of my life making $1.50 an hour digging ditches . . . That seemed like a lot if money.

#32

It’s an attractive price to be sure. Considering that Werner paddles for example can’t be touched for under about $300, it’s worth considering. However, consider that a Werner Shuna for example weighs (at 210cm), 27 oz, there’s a difference of roughly 5 oz. Remembering that a paddler might take up to 40 strokes/minute and a typical outing might last 2 hours or 120 minutes, that means you’re moving 5 oz as many as 2400 times. Quite a bit of weight in my eyes. In the end I typically will say to just get the lightest paddle you can afford. jyak has mentioned Werner paddles also in comments. They’re great paddles (I own 2), but are significantly more expensive that Aquabound or similar; especially when considering carbon fiber. I’m assuming the op wasn’t interested in spending that $.

1 Like
#33

I own two Werners; both are 15 yr old +/- FG Camanos (230 cm), one with straight shaft and one bent. They were good paddles when they were new (truly, they still are), though a bit heavy by today’s standards. Then, as I started surveying high-angle options, I made the same weight calculation you did using the 35 1/2 oz bent shaft Camano as my benchmark - what an eye opener!
Despite good pricing, Aqua Bound’s Manta Ray isn’t on my short list because of the extra weight and because it has a bigger (653 cm2) blade. From what others have advised on this forum, I think I want a bit less blade surface so I can maintain a somewhat faster cadence in my canoe (Northstar Magic) with less risk of shoulder strain.
The four paddles now on my short list are Werner Shuna, Aqua Bound Whiskey, Accent Outback, and Accent Fit. The Shuna and Whiskey are nearly identical in blade size, weight, and price. The Outback is comparable too, but 3 oz heavier. The Fit is also 3 oz heavier than the first two, but it’s full foam core blade should give it a lower swing weight. However, it costs $60 more and I have as yet not been able to actually see and hold one. So, if I had to decide today, I’d choose the Shuna with glass blade. It’s specs are within my preferred range, I’ve had nothing but good experience with my other Werners, and I’d rather use the extra coin for a carbon blade on something else.

#34

I truely believe the paddle is the personal link in a kayak. One of the best threads many months ago was “Convince me to Spend more Money on a Paddle”. It made me think, and my conclusion was, “If you have to be convinced, then you must be happy, and you dont need a new paddle!”

My first suggestion is to use what you have. The flat shovel was really not intended as a joke. If it had double heads, that paddle would propel the boat, so just use it. Why not? Go ahead and pick it apart. Weight, overbuilt, angle of the blade is wrong, works better at high angle than low angle, maybe some dihedral, assymetric blades to help it reduce torque around the shaft.

How heavy is too heavy and how light is too light? Werner Ovation is a Kalliste that weighs a few ounces less, but it has a disclaimer: weight saving is at the expense of strength. I know one paddler who would shred it, but my 11 year old grand daughter would love it and get several years out of a $550 paddle. How important is swing weight if you paddle with the ducks and admire the shore. That changes when you want to paddle thirty miles - it changes everything.

If you’re looking for a fast paddle, do you have the stamina or physical strength to swing a Wing Paddle and abity to manage the rigid form to reap the benefits. Are you willing to batter a $500 carbon paddle to pry yourself out of rocks or would a reinforced nylon blade be better.

If you paddle long hours, swing weight is a killer. If you simply piddle around the shore, where swing weight is inconsequential, you still may appreciate the transparency of a premium paddle. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to hold a feather light paddle to enhance your enjoyment, when a 48 oz aluminum shaft with plastic blades do just as well. If your quality of life focuses on such expeditions, how much should it cost to fully appreciate that pleasure. How much should you pay? How much does it cost over years for a lifetime of enjoyment?

How long should a paddle be. Ask someone, but how do they know. Does boat width really change the angle of attack as much as your shoulder width, arm length, high or low angle. I started with 220 cm and went from moderate high angle to very low angle and settled on 240 cm, then tried 250 cm. Why? Because I wanted to know. A relatively new paddler pointed out how much better control the 240 cm offered. Its true, but I still like the 250 cm. Who knows better than me. You can quote theory, but I quote GPS, which might be inaccurate, but not as inaccurate as perception. Yet the GPS and time measured over known distance times tells me everything I need to know.

Using a high end paddle doesn’t mean you’ll go faster. I just means you’ll feel more comfortable. You still have to learn how to use it. I think I learned more in two years by talking to new paddlers who used my quality paddle than I did in 10 years by myself.

If there’s something about your paddle that you don’t like, seek information to figure out how to fix it. But first think about how much it’ll cost. Two friends pointed out how the thinner blade catches cleaner, but the lack of dihedral makes it flutter. That made me think about taking advantage of the spoon shaped curve from the tip to the shaft to help stability. How do you do that? Think like a paddle - listen and feel the paddle as you pull the boat forward and build speed. When it reaches a speed that causes it to slip, figure out how to catch water to move the boat faster while reducing the relative velocity of the paddle in the slipstream of the boat. Maybe speed isn’t your thing, but everybody likes to do more with less effort.

Paddles are more than light weight and large blades. Don’t invest money or change until you know what you need.

2 Likes
#35

Exactly. I’ve paddled the the solo canoe long enough now to know that none of my Kayak paddles feels “right”. Part of the reason, I’m sure, is that the higher angle stroke I use in the canoe is better suited to a paddle of different length and blade specs. Trying out all the different options first-hand would be the best way to choose, but in the absence of that opportunity, combining my own idiosyncrasies with the full menu of experiences and opinions shared on this Board is a pretty good second.

#36

The forum is the best starting point. I’ve learned as much from people I don’t agree with, as well as from novice paddlers

Although I dislike the Greenland style paddle, I learned a lot about paddles in general by making one. I also more fully appreciate where the Greenland has a distinct advantage, if not for speed.

What suprises me is how often Greenland paddles are suggested when someone has shoulder issues using a paddle with a 110 sq inch blade. Rather than learning a new paddle style, it might be easier to buy a paddle like the Little Dipper, which is 27 oz with a 86 sq inch blade, which is very small, but still larger than a 75 or 80 sq in Greenland paddle. Skagit is 93.4 sq inch and 35 oz, but the blades are reinforced nylon (remember the comment about swing weight that was made earlier). Carbon fiber is stiffer as well as lighter. Stiffness improves accuracy and tracking; let the water buffer the shock rather than a flexible paddle. So for $174, what has better specs, the Aqua for $134 at 32 oz or the Werner. Additionally, the user doesn’t have to adapt to a different paddling style. (Double check the prices and the

Another suggestion is a more flexible shaft because it’s viewed as easier on joints. I can’t say I disagree, but actually believe the easiest way to ease stress on joints is to reduce blade surface area and increase cadence. Higher cadence is best accomplished by getting the blades closer to the water and reducing the depth of the plunge - low angle.

The Wing Paddle appears to be the champion’s choice for speed, but it comes with some important considerations. My greatest concern is how the blades must strike the water like hitting concrete and how the blade exit flings a pound of water with each stroke. That’s easy if you’re fit and conditioned, while paddling sitting in a specially designed seat in a boat that’s 30% narrower and 5 feet longer with a hull that weighs 40% lest and is shaped like a Concorde jet. Truth is I couldn’t last .62 miles let alone going the distance for 10 miles, which means I need a far more technical approach that I call efficiency - do more with less.

Anyway. That’s my thoughts for anyone not sure which direction to go with a paddle. If you’ve paddled a while you already have it figured out.

1 Like
#37

Wing paddle is 3% faster not worth it to me unless I was racing

1 Like
#38

95 % agree. I don’t have shoulder issues, so we’re coming from a different places, but that’s OK.
For me, I’m thinking that higher cadence is best accomplished by using a paddle with smaller blades, bringing them in as close to the keel line as is reasonably possible, and reducing the depth of the plunge with a shorter (high angle) paddle.

#39

@PaddleDog52 from what I see of the wing paddle, it looks like its best as a sprint paddle, but don’t know enough ablut those who use it for distance paddling. My question is whether the speed advantage remains the same 3% without the wild straight arm swing. To begin with, that articulation is out of the question for me. That leads me to believe anyone using thst technique could easily damage the shoulder joints, especially if not executed properly. I’m certain thst high angle paddling co tributed to my injury. No idea how much was due to my aggressive paddling and how much was due to improper execution. I do know thst the low angle is allowing me to increase my speeds with less stress on my joints, despite being 10 years older. The suggestion about GPS error is not relevant. Because it the same course, regardless of conditions, and the amount of time it takes to finish the distance keeps reducing. The GPS only confirms what I conclude based on elapse time.

@Buffalo_Alice I understand and don’t disagree. As we both realize, high angle is better executed with a short paddle length, because the high swing creates too long of an arc and it takes too long to plunge, recover and set up for the next power stroke on the other side.

I’m far from an expert on paddling, but had to adapt from a fairly powerful high angle stroke to any strile at all. I simply cannot do high angle anymore. I don’t have the range of motion anymore. Before my shoulder injury, I could spike speeds of 6.4 mph without any wave assists. Now the best I can manage is around 5.4 or 5.6 mph, unless cinditions favor speed, then I can hit 7.1 mph to 7.9 mph. The low angle makes it possible as long as it has an assist.

The satisfying part is thst I’m still reducing my elapse time by about .05 mph per trip. It sounds miniscule, but it’s consistent, and I don’t have the sme shoulder pain.

#40

I hit 13+ mph CURRENT AND WIND are great… :laughing:

They use wings for long distance races all the time.