Yes even with skills, and gear and seamanship there are increased wisks to winter paddling. OTOH It can be done with reasonable safety. Not by some idiot who just puts their bottom in a boat and goes "yee ha"! but by someone who wants to serve an apprenticeship.
so to emphasize the point: i am talking drysuit and hood so that there is very little immersion shock. I am talking wetting the face to minimize it further, I am talking skills which are two levels above what you can anticipate encountering, I am talking knowledge of currents and hazards, good nav skills, contingency planning, and yes given where I am and what I do I expect that in an hour the CG could come to bail me out. That is my last contingency plan. If I ever make that call for myslef it will prpbably be the end of my paddlng carreer, I am no Skalak.
I am sure that mose of the paddlers you may have had close encounters with while in the CG were not prudent mariners. The average tourist scuba diver cannot safely dive in winter, or engage in a cold water CG rescue, but with the right training and equipment it can be done. I would not be in a canoe at sea during the winter (or even in the summer for that matter) but some would.
L Ok I was playing ICE breaker in an old Aluminum Canoe (LONG TIME AGO), I had on 2 COTTON Sweatshirts and a T-Shirt, and some of those denim pants with the built in flannel liner… The air temp was around 20 something or so and the water temp was around freezing I was more then 100’ from shore around 50 yards or so… The canoe slid up on some Ice and fell through sideways and filled with water… I swam out of the canoe breaking through the thin Ice as I went… I then preceded to run home as fast as I could, about ¼ mile away… by the time I got home my pants were freezing solid on the outside. If you want to see if you can do this just join a local polar Bear club and test yourself!! Hey Jack go on down to Sliding rock and jump into the pool at the bottom!! L that should be a great test this time of year! BTW I did that in late Dec several years ago on a dare!! Make sure you have your LIME green shorts on for INCREASED VISABILITY!!! L
Swim, no – PFD, Yes! Nice link, Peter. There’s a passage in there that says it all, IMHO…
“Survival tables suggest that a victim may survive for a relatively long time in cold water (40-50 degrees F, 1-3 hrs). These tables are only valid if the victim is wearing a life jacket. Without the flotation of the life jacket, the victim is forced to swim, which drastically accelerates heat loss, onset of paralysis, and drowning.”
IOW, don’t even think about swimming! And that utterly removes any argument for not wearing a PFD.
Sorry, but this has been a really silly, even dangerous thread. Don’t become a statistic – wear the doggone PFD!
On, always on PFD on, stay with the boat and get it back in paddling order. Then paddle to shore and do the hypothermia dance. Swimming for shore is a bad idea. If you can’t get your boat back in paddling order then gene pool maintenance protects us all.
I’ll pass on sliding rock, thanks. that place in the middle of the summer is as cold as the Nantahala.
But you are here to relate the story which seconds what I was getting at, and those two sweatshits must have been heavy as hell.
I tested myself several times.
Twice in Glacier Bay and once in the Noatak River in the ANWR.
It might bear worth repeating what I posted here two years ago what they do to the newbies up in Haines, Ak in the winter if they want to paddle:
Scoop up a pail full of water and tell the person to hold one hand in it as long as possible.
When the person has their limit and takes their hand out, a quarter is thrown down on the dock and they are told to pick it up. It is impossible to do!
... one can survive a wet exit into cold water just fine. Certainly if accompanied, but even if alone, there are good ways to get back in the boat in plenty of time (not that I recommend solo cold-water paddling).
So the point of view represented by...
> All the PFD is going to do is keep your dead body afloat
> so your survivors can find it without too much trouble.
is misleading and dangerous!
What has emerged, however, is that one sure way NOT to survive is to attempt to swim for shore, even if it's as close as 100 yards, maybe even 100 feet. So the question of swimming better without a PFD is a red herring.
Bottom line... wear your PFD; don't try to swim for it; live to paddle another day.
yeah I remember the Zipper being frozen and it being a real pain to get my pants off… Luckily my brother who lived in the basement at the time had his fireplace going… Of course I didn’t learn from that lesson and sometime later tried to pole a chunk of Ice across a large beaver pond… That ended up the same way… Luckily it was a little warmer that day…
One year ago , I was in 40 degree water on a 60 degree day and am convinced I wouldn’t be here if not for the PFD.I ‘swam’ the 50 ’ to shore and could barely drag myself out.And would have frozen on shore if Swedge hadn’t loaned me a nylon jacket liner.
Jack’s just positing a talking point It’s just an interesting discussion of how a PFD affects your swimming vs its benefits. I don’t think anyone is going to decide to go out without a PFD because of this thread. No harm, no foul.
You are failing to convince me of anything as I am not the one attempting to justify and rationalize doing something that I know to be inherently dumb.
Unless, or course, one enjoys defying death and boasting about it, which many do.
As recently as one year ago there used to be a doctor in my town that kayaked. He reached the point where even class III at high water bored him, so he began doing class IV and V.
Like you, he had all the gear and waived off naysayers by citing his "experience" and skill level. He's been dead for a nearly a year now, but he died doing something he enjoyed to do and boast about doing.
p.s. they were unable to recover his body from the river under the drop until water lowered in the spring.
I just suppose it takes different strokes ...
and, oh yes, I paddle one of those "killer" canoes, so don't bother saying what I expect you are thinking ...
NO fan of clas V here Im talking about a nice ocean paddle with a bit of currents and waves, not rockstrewn hydraulic mayhem. I’ll leave that to braver folks
Why not? Did anyone read the recent issue of Seakayakers? There’s article about the Tsunami Rangers. Most of the Rangers are now over 50. They’ve done this outrageously dangeous stuff for over 20 years when everyone expect them to be dead long ago.
The difference between class VI and class V? When someone ran a previously un-runnable class VI, it becomes class V!
Just because you don’t have the skill doesn’t means others don’t.
And you can be very skilled and very dead. No matter how good you are, there comes a point where you’re on the edge of your skills and one mistake can be disastrous. Spending time on that edge is dangerous. Some choose to do so, and if they do so with their eyes open, so be it. But let’s not get into playing testerone games and shaming people who choose not to push their personal envelopes, whatever those may be.
Judging others I’m sorry but I think you got it completely backwards. No one is shaming those who’s NOT pushing their personal envolope. It starts with the “non-testeron” gang judging the winter paddlers as not careing their own life and not caring about the love one they left behind! They just don’t believe anyone is skill enough to be safe at such levels. I feel obligated to set the record straight:
Forgive me, you can be equally dead in much milder water, say class III, if you don’t have the skill.
Why are people so worked up about the “environment” (such as class V or winter paddling) WITHOUT even taking into account of the skill of the people who’re doing it? Is going to the moon dangereous? Why aren’t people calling the astronounts “testastron junkies” who doesn’t care about the love ones they left behind???
To the world at large, kayaking itself is dangereous enough. Plenty of people drown kayaking in summer! None of us should be doing it since we’re not depending on it for our living! Same with skiing, mountain biking, sailing around the world, hot-air ballooning… What else am I missing from the list? Oh yes, hang-gliding!
If people on this board are judging the class V runners and winter paddlers as “pushing the limit recklessly”, why shouldn’t they be judged by the couch patatos of world? Little wonder outfitters are having such a problem getting insurance. No one believe an average kayaker have the skill to stay alive on less than placid water. These are nothing but adrenaline junkies, nothing less… blah, blah, blah…
So, get your butts out of that thousand dollar kayak of yours and firmly plant it on the couch! Think about the love ones you’ll leave behind when you’re gone prematurely!!!
speak for yourself "I would need to question the logic of why anyone who sees nothing wrong in paddling on water that is cold enough to quickly kill would need to wonder about this."
Huh? So what’s your point, aside from succumbing to the well-documented human need to vent anger and frustration?
You are acting like someone who has just had someone tap on your car window only to inform you of the obvious – that you didn’t park between the lines.
You obviously enjoy what you do and are relatively unconcerned with the dangers, so why can’t you just say you enjoy living on the edge and let it go at that and forget about attacking those that either don’t share your views or shake their heads in wonder?
Call me an old fogey, but what’s with the couch potato thing?