pintail speed?

the buy a new boat to stay interested in
paddling tactic is typical for alot of people in paddling.

But it’s not unusual for sports, people buy new skis to stay interested in skiing, or new bikes, new running clothes, and so on. These people often don’t stick with it, they really just have a thing for buying new stuff. Once that wears off or they run out of money they quit.


P&H Capella ?
Where does this boat fall in comparison to the Pintail?

Pintails don’t track well at all

– Last Updated: Jan-29-05 12:51 PM EST –

they are a party sea kayak for the rough stuff. Turn like nobodies business and fun to drive.

Like a porche 914 compared to a lincoln.

Capella
The Capella is not a low volume boat. It’s a nice boat, but I sold mine to go to a lower volume boat. I now own both an Avocet and an Aquanaut. The Avocet is a real fun boat and pretty fast for a 16 footer, it’s my fun day surf/play boat. The Aquanaut is similar, but definitely faster and stronger tracking, it’s my longer paddles/touring boat. I just love VCP boats, great hull designs, good strong layup, quality construction.

Another path
I’m running out of commercial boats that interest me. Love my 700, hope to get the hang of the Mark 1 eventually, but to get what I really want as a next boat I will have to design and build.



I wouldn’t call that losing interest.



I went from an upgrading mentality (buy new one, sell old one) to a diversification one (different boats to work on different skills). All boats save one were bought used, and the new one was bought mostly with money from the sale of others, so not that cash intensive for the long haul. The bigger limit for me is time to use them (and storage!).

914?
don’t you mean a 911? Or are you referring to the relative low horsepower of a 914?

Believe what you want, check the results
Kris wrote:

BTW - I’d like to see you hold a Romany 16 at 4.7 knots (5.4 mph) for “hours on end”. Actually 2-3 hours would do. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not doubting you, or “calling you out”, just saying I’d like to see it (as I have seen a few other amazing paddlers - Barton comes to mind beating skis with a sea kayak). At that average speed you’d finish the Bogey race in Key largo (13.2 miles) in 2:26:40. Not in with the winners - but a good time. Too good for a Romany 16 maybe (go to kayakfloridakeys.com and compare to the 16-18 sea kayak times last year). Since I know many of the paddlers who paddle that race, what their times are, and what hulls they paddle - like I said - I’d just like to see it.>>



If I’ve done the math right, your pace for the 13.2 mile (11.48 nm) 2004 Bogey & Bacall was 4.35 knots. Did you paddle your QC 700 in that race? How long have you been racing? How many races do you enter each year?


Maybe you meant MPH? 4.7 MPH is pretty reasonable to hold over distance in most any sea kayak.>>



Kris, I’m a sea kayaker so I don’t measure “distance over water” in land-measurement units. FWIW, I compared my first-and-only race pace from the 2004 Blackburn Challenge (17.5+ nm in 3;32;12, 4.9 knots average) to the results from the 2004 Bogey & Becall race, for the class you competed in. It seems my pace from the Blackburn would have put me in 3rd place in that race. I’m only 49, so I probably don’t qualify for the Master’s class. On the other hand the Blackburn is more than 50% longer than the B&B, and less protected so who knows how much more I could have pulled out of my Greenlander Pro on a shorter race or with more racing experience.


Of course it’s hard to compare. The good racers are usually in faster hulls. Who knows what they could get out of a Romany. Maybe a top notch paddler like yourself is capable of that easily.>>



I hardly a top notch paddler, but I have no difficulty pushing my Romany to 4.7 (as per my knot-meter) for 3-4 hours at an exercise pace. I can only imagine how disconcerting it must be for you to imagine a boat as “slow” as a Romany being driven faster than you can push your QCC 700 for 2.5 hrs. In this area, I don’t qualify as a fast paddler. There are paddlers like Nick Schade and Mark Starr that are significantly faster than me in any boat they paddle. Half of the people I paddle with on a regular basis are faster than I am.


I doubt I could hold our Pintail at that speed, and it’s “faster” than the Romany. I was also slower than that last two races I did in a Q700.>>



The 4th place Women’s Touring Class finisher in last years Blackburn ran a time of 4:04:09. I believe that works out to a pace of 4.28 knots, not far off your 4.35 knot pace from last years B&B. I don’t paddle a Pintail, so I have no idea if it’s faster than a Romany. But given this woman’s performance I have no doubt that I could push a Pintail faster than 4.5 knots for 3 hours. Isn’t the Pintail considered to be a much “slower” boat than the QCC 700? So much for boats vs motors . . . official Blackburn results are available @ http://www.blackburnchallenge.com



cheers,



Jed

914’s
I’m sure Peter was refering to the handling of the 914 compared to that of a Lincoln.



Back when I played with such things, people dropped 911 engines into 914’s to create 914-6’s. A 914 fitted this way was certainly not starved for horse power.



Jed

Pintail speed
Up to about 4 knots, the Pintail will be just about as fast as a Romany, Explorer, Capella, whatever. At 4 knots, the bow wake very quickly enlarges and it takes a lot more effort to push the pace up higher that with other boats. I’ve a Capella (my first boat) that I use as a loaner; a Quest, that I use for camping, and any paddle over 12-15 miles; and the Pintail, which I use for anything that involves surfing, poking around, teaching, and playing with bow rudders etc. It’s a great boat, but not for long distance or fast paddles.

I think the old capella
had an unusual amount of rocker in it for a P&H Hull, compared to the new ones they are making in plastic. I really liked the old capella plastic hull. I still do, but the new ones have gone in the wrong direction I think. Of course it is not that low volume nor is it a high rockered hull compared to a pintail or anas.




Greeenlander Pro times…
… are not what I posted about. I posted about your Romany times.



I think “knot meter” answers my question.



My speeds are speed made good, not speed through the water. They have a bad habit of being different, with any knot meter speed I’ve ever seen reading a little high on average. Great for self reference/workouts - not always for comparison with others.



Yes, the Pintail is much slower than the Q700. Similar to the difference between your Greenlander and Romany. Interesting that you get only 0.2 knots more out of the Greenlander - but that could just be conditions during the Blackburn.



I already said I’m not fast, and only race a couple times a year for fun. I find nothing in your post “disconcerting”. Just curious.



“Kris, I’m a sea kayaker so I don’t measure “distance over water” in land-measurement units.”



Yeah, and a downright snooty one at that! L



You obviously have skills on several levels, so I do pay a little extra attention to what you post, but the grain of salt I take with them is getting nearly as coarse as your attitude. Thanks for the additional info, even if it did have little to do with the Romany.

Speed on the water Vs. Land (GPS)
As you know, I had used a GPS for measuring speed for about 2 years. It is simple, easy to use, and great for races in order to identify the strongest/weakest currents.



In December, I installed a SpeedCoachGold from NK, and I haven’t used the GPS ever since. I was completely fed up with the current distortions and the impossibility of seeing my stroke rate.



If the SpeedCoach is well calibrated the speed measurement is perfect. Of couse, I doubt most poeple would take to time to develop a spreadsheet with 10 different trip as I did.



The different speeds between boats it is not due to the instrument but lack of calibration.



Anyway, I am talking about the one by NK (Nielsen-Kellerman) or SpeedCoachGold and not the Speedmate which is a cheap and bad copy from the first one.



Regards,

Iceman


His name is Lon Haldeman

– Last Updated: Jan-29-05 11:13 AM EST –

Reply to Kwinkle 2 gear guy.

Dang it, why are my replys shifted 2-3 down from actual?

me thinks

– Last Updated: Jan-29-05 11:26 AM EST –

they were a stock item. at least 500 of 'em.

http://www.stazak.com/914/gt/intro/intro.html

steve

I’d already have one…
… if I trained like you.

Never saw one with the hot motor
in it. Talking about the base one.

seen, but not drive
the 914-6.



I did get an op to drive a very hot 4 cylinder 914 once. almost bought it. A worser money pit than a boat!



steve

VERY good post Jed!
Actually all good posts on this subject. So many beginners are mis-lead about kayak hydrodynamics, and find themselves in long, heavy boats. Speed is sooo mis-understood. In reality most touring kayakers paddle along at about 3-4 knots, and at those speeds most boats are very close in terms of effort required, with the shorter boats having a slight advantage, assuming their cross sections are similar. So, a weaker paddler will not benefit from a longer boat, and in fact will suffer greater effects from sea state and wind. The other thing to think about is that these drag data are assuming calm seas. There are no absolutes, and every boat is just another compromise of many variables. My evolution of experience and learning has me wanting a shorter kayak for coastal touring with my preference being a loose hull, and for flat water a full on surf ski, or legitimate fast tourer. There are many folks who really focus on speed and derive pleasure from seeing how fast they can travel. For them, clearly a shorter hull is not appropriate. But I’m either in a playful tourer, or a surf ski. If speed is your thing, then don’t screw around. And as previously said here, it’s the engine that matters far more. I’m encouraged to see that people are getting this stuff, and I hope more realistic information starts to spread through the industry. The Pintail is an awesome kayak. Many great boats out there to choose from.

Spray-bro
where ya’ been??



getting sonme good paddling in??



steve

Respond to flatpick
Lots of surfing in Mexico / some California. Headed north soon to visit friends and surf.