doubt it
it’ll take the thermoplastic dropping in cost for it to be competitive with polyethelene. It’s not significantly lighter for a comparable volume kayak,pick up a poly Eclipse then pick up a thermoplastic Eclipse,then look at the execution of the hatches or coaming. They’ve still got a ways to go in design while pushing a particular price point.
I’d still look to Eddyline as they’ve been working the material and deck/hull seam technology longer. I’ve seen a Perception Sonoma 13 with a blown hull/deck seam, maybe it was handling,either way it’s something to consider. I’d be curious how a big thermoplastic Perception kayak holds up with a big load in rough landings. We all know what plastic does,what it doesn’t do is have seams fail. For the $400 premium,approx. $100/lb, I don’t want to discover how well the hull/deck seam holds up. This isn’t the time to discover what works for the customer like the earlier thick seatbacks Perception had for years and years,and said were no problem dislodging and complicating rescues.
It’s a good material and I like the Sonoma 13 as well as the look of the Current Designs Kestral 120,but it’s just another material bridging price ranges.
I’m not sure it’s such a HOT topic
Unlike skeg vs. rudder, where each has a particular pros and cons, and compromise compromise to be debate over, the plastic vs. fiberglass discussion seems to be rather one-sided, at least on this board.
Just about everyone who has own fiberglass kayak tend to prefer it over plastic. They see little advantage for plastic except in limited use such as surf/rock. (even there, there’re some who believe a heavier layup of fiberglass is the way to go) The lower initial purchase price of plastic is then offset by by the longer useful life of fiberglass.
Granted, there’s no denying the psychological advantage of cheaper plastic boat for beginner who hasn’t quite decided IF they’ll stay with the sport, never mind getting so serious that they CARE about the advantage of fiberglass! More over, for beginner who hasn’t acquired the skill to differentiate the performance of different hull shape, the better choice of hull shape available in fiberglass boats is still rather a mute point.
So, instead of a HOT debate, it’s usually a simple repeat of some well-agreed upon list for the education of the ignorant. That is, until someone can come up with some well researched points FOR the plastic side, we may THEN have a true “debate”.
…
If you want something that lasts even longer than composite boats, try folding kayaks like the ones from Feathercraft. They are built to last 30 years ! Try to beat that with your composite ! You’ll say PERFORMANCE again, well just talk to the people at Feathercraft or people who bought these boats…
When you buy a kayak you do not necessarily want to race. I like to observe nature, take pictures, fish, and just relax. When you take a longer plastic boat like my 17’ BorealDesign Inukshuk, you get fantastic comfort, great stability and good speed. You’re also not afraid to bump rocks once in awhile. Plastic won’t chip like fiberglass. Of course it will scratch too but it’s not the same thing. It won’t hurt the same to drag it on the ground (if you must do that). You should start by showing respect for those who like plastic boats instead of looking down on them. And last, they are not all beginners that will eventually buy composite boats.
You contradict yourself
"You’re also not afraid to bump rocks once in awhile. Plastic won’t chip like fiberglass. "
…
"You should start by showing respect for those who like plastic boats instead of looking down on them. "
Unless you’re paddling with people who own fiberglass kayaks just for show, the ones I paddle with are NOT “afraid to bump rocks” at all, not just “once in a while” either. It is YOU who should start showing respect for those who like fiberglass boats WITHOUT knocking platic boat owner by calling it a “waste of money”!
I was in a trip when the storm surge took a boat from the beach while we slept, and it got thrown around the rocks for some time. It got a hole that you can put a fist through. Well, the owner just pull out his fiberglass patch kit… and a few hours later, the boat is back on water and amoungst the rock again. Talk about “afraid to bump rocks once in awhile”!
"Of course it will scratch too but it’s not the same thing. It won’t hurt the same to drag it on the ground (if you must do that). "
Right, it’s not the same. Fiberglass scratches can be easily repaired. “It’s not the same” with plastic boats.
I just returned
from a trip where I was the only tupperware boat in the group, T-165. I never felt the lesser for having an RM kayak nor was I at a disadvantage at any time. Perhaps I had to paddle a bit stronger to maintain the pace than my counterparts but I certainly didn’t notice it.
If a paddler feels like he/she is on a lower evolutionary rung due to their boat’s composition, then perhaps they are paddling with the wrong folks or have a problem with personal esteem.
I paddle what I prefer to live with and my compadres paddle their preference. Where’s the problem?
~Holmes
you think
a Feathercraft is durable? Portable, yes. durable, no.
and you talk expensive. While a nice vessel, the feathgercraft is a specialty boat for a very small percentage of folks. Believe me, I sold them for years.
I have tons of respect for plastic boat owners, in fact I are one. and I make a chunk of change selling them.
Me thinks you don’t really know what the heck you are talking about when it comes to scratches and bumps in boats. A composite boat will take abrasion way better than a plastic boat.
steve
You guys are really touchy… mmman !
I’ve never seen a bunch of people so touchy and not willing to respect other people’s opinions.
On this forum, I only gave my own opinion not trying to insult anyone. I’m not saying composite boats are no good. I said “I” don’t want one for my use. AND YES, PLASTIC BOATS RESIST TO SHOCKS A LOT BETTER, OK ! I have consulted many other forums. Every boat store where I have shopped had the same thing to say too. You have to be a lot more careful with a composite boat and there is a lot more maintenance to do. AND THAT’S FINAL !
Someone implied I said “composite kayaks are a waste of money”. WHAT ? I never said that. Don’t try to put words in my mouth. A guy asked our opinion, and I gave it to him.
ok…
it is like the difference between paper/plastic plates and fine porcelain china dinner ware…you nearly always get what you pay for so keep paddling around in those tupperware tubs. Who needs performance, elegance and style on the water anyway? right?
I take it back
"Someone implied I said “composite kayaks are a waste of money”. WHAT ? I never said that. Don’t try to put words in my mouth."
Sorry, I mis-understood you. You only said:
“there are plastic boats that perform almost like composite boats so the difference is between the ears ! :))”
I shouldn’t have put words into your mouth. My apology.
…
Yes, for some the difference is between the ears because they lack experience to see the real difference. Face it, a composite boat looks great. Normal for people to want one before a plastic boat, with that look. Personaly, I couldn’t care less.
I have a plastic boat
and I like it, I love it…BUT…after briefly paddling a glass boat a few weeks ago, I personally could really feel a difference–the glass boat was slippery in the water, it was like, I put my paddle in and whoa, zero to 60 in like a nanosecond. The bulkheads on my plastic boat tend to require attention due to the plastic’s reactions to heat and cold (we store them in our garage, away from the sun, but of course the sun shines out on the water too!) I have the glass boat fever and sure I will succumb in time. I guess whatever floats your boat, right! Happy paddling everyone!
thanks!!I 'm not an old salt
It would be nice not to sound like a total landlubber though!
Not to go off on a tangent…
… especially with sunch a tangential discussion as this one, but I think it was Bobby McFerrin, not Bob Marley, with the “Don’t worry, Be happy.”
Good advice for all of us.
If they are so high performance
how come no paddling races of top caliber are won by folks paddling them?
And talk about performance per dollar. Folders are not the way to go unless you need them to fold.
No skin will last through 30 years of hard use either. Not without big time repair.
Plastic kayaks last about half as long as composite kayaks.
Foam cored plastic kayaks suffer when the foam degrades. It's foam, that means a lot of surface area; lots of degredation.
Did we cover the fact that rotomolding cannot give the crisp lines that composites can nor can they execute a design as accurately. Thermoforming like eddyline does gives close to composite results in form. Have we covered the stiffness issue on this thread yet. Stiffness correlates with speed, (or so the designers of kayaks for olympic racers from every country believe). Of course, such fields are often revolutionized by folks with little experience and a lot of unique insight.
I think this is the first post of yours I've read. (did a search for what you have posted here. You've posted in one other thread.) Pretty pushy way to start. Then you plea for folks to respect your opinion. Without your saying that the difference is "between the ears" (thus insulting the intelligence of those us us who for reasons of performance and longevity prefer composites for some uses), your use of emoticons (which I found rude and insulting), and "attitude" "sorry composite lovers" maybe folks you not have jumped on you so hard. As it is, welcome to paddling.net.
People who are disagreeing with you are folks like boat designers, paddlers who paddle in places I would not yet dare (and I dare a wee bit) and other paddlers whose worth and wisdom are much respected by this community. Then there is me, resident wiseacre, and self-styled P.I.T.A.
From an owner of 5 boats; 2 glass, 2 kevlar, one rotomolded, all of which have their place in my fleet. (Though I confess that the white water boat and the pintail are not seeing enough use)All of which are in the material they are in for good reasons.
Agreed
My income bracket makes me much more comfortable beating hell out of a $1300 boat than a $2300 boat… and I don’t want to worry about scrapes and scratches. I kayak to relax.
well put! (nt)
face it…
every plastic boat owner dreams about fiberglass or kevlar in their sleep. If $$ is not an obstacle, everyone will buy composite.
So, is Trylon a composite?
Does anyone know anything about the performance characteristics of this “Trylon” material?
http://www.touringkayaks.com/hurricane.htm
I’m looking at this boat for my first foray outside of plastic boats.
Don’t Care, Really…
if the boat fits, that’s more important to me. I have a couple of plastic touring boats, a wood stitch and Glue (wood composite), a fiberglass boat, and a skin on frame. My S&G and fiberglass boats haven’t seen water in almost a year. My SOF gets the call most since I am always day paddling. It helps that it’s the lightest but more important, it fits me the best, and handles the easiest on the water for me.
I wrote EMC, the manufacturer of the plastic EPIsea, a plastic boat with “greenland” inspired lines. I asked whether they would consider lengthening the boat to 17’ for Greenland enthusiasts. They said, they didn’t have room in the manufacturing site to handle boats of that length (? huh). So no go. But, I would gladly paddle a lengthened plastic EPIsea because it would have the hull shape and narrowness in beam and low deck height that I would prefer over any of the current fiberglass boats (or “tubs” for my size) out there.
sing
I wish I’d had a plastic boat
a couple weeks ago on a shallow, fast rock bottomed stream when my skin coat fiberglass boat was grinding across rock beds removing the finish. I was grimmacing the whole time thinking of the resurfacing work to come. I wouldn’t have cared at all about the rocks in my plastic boat.
I know, the original post was in regard to coastal waters, not streams, but I’d rather drag my poly boats across rocks than my glass boats. Maybe I’m just squeamish because of my newbie ignorance. I know that some river running and white water boats are still made of composites.