PNW heat dome clam bake, or something stinks with how we treat the earth!

We all should believe what we want. But we should keep in mind how miniscule our finite existence is relative to earth and time. We aren’t even a dot as a race, much less as an individual. There are some very interesting studies out there relative to sunspots and how they affect the earth’s atmosphere. When we try to shoehorn our own life into the timeline of the earth we are giving ourselves an exponentially more impact than is real.

Something to consider for conversation: If the global cooling/warming/weather is affected by industrial output…and our “leaders” actually care about it…and relatedly, us…then why do they always exempt the largest polluter on the planet, china? Why do they mandate they have voluntary compliance at some point in the future, yet immediately shut down our own energy production and restrictions on usages? That worldview only affects the workers and consumers.
Could it be almost all of our “leaders” are corrupt and only interested in graft, their bank accounts, mansions, and maintaining their ruling class status? China’s a communist dictatorship that has murdered 60,000,000 of their own people and are continuing to do it this very day, but using them as slave labor to make goods for sale to the world…in factories that pollute the world in a way the USA could never dream of.
Why do our leaders support (and help finance) them?
Because they are running a con. They want us to worry about the polar ice caps that were to melt in 2012, the baby harp seals or some other esoteric crusades to take our eyes off they are looting nations, selling out their people and indeed, looking at humans as commodities.
And we all buy it because they have our interest at heart. We know it because they tell us that they will save us. We just have to trust them and give them more power and control. They will do what’s best for us because they truly care about us…
really…trust them…

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I think NOAA is a real weather / climate organization. I don’t doubt their statistics are reasonable and as scientific as they can do and I believe they are not biased to any large amount. I even believe the planet is seeing an up turn in the heating cycle and it can be called global warming.

I didn’t read in that report where the increases were related directly to mans activities or that the USA economy activates is the cause or any nation for that matter even though we know other nations are doing less than we are.

In the 1300 till the early 1800 earth experienced the Little Ice Age and was on a long cooling cycle that slowly changed into a warming cycle. I don’t believe the planet is on a programmed hot / cold cycle just that climate does cycle around many variables some perhaps man made and others out of our control.

If you look at the NOAA chart I see where my youthful life happened around the cycle change in the 50s thru 80s. So those of us between 60-80 years old find our best memories of what is our normal of memory around that baseline. Also note the expansive scaling of the chart showing anomaly temps is around 1 degree C over 120 years. These are averaged temps of the whole earth so who knows what happened in one area of the earth where we live. Like you I have vivid memories of winters though and as a kid it seemed to remain snow covered the whole winter at least the years I remember best. Then in recent years I got to thinking we haven’t had those kind of winters maybe there is something to this warming idea and just about then we had one of the coldest longest winters of my life where the temp got down as low as –36F one morning.

So looking at the chart a person born in 1900 would have also seen global warming between birth and 1945 of about the same amount I have seen in my life and likely never noticed a thing as no one was talking about it.

In 1880 how many weather stations around the world were reporting data and how accurate was it. I’m sure even within the last 30 years there have been massive changes in measuring and reporting. How much of the chart can be accounted for as dither etc.

Like others have posted here I don’t doubt some change is happening. What I object to is how the real science is being used as a way to force change and control of every aspect of our life. I can handle filtering data but it is much harder filtering motive.

Finally I found it interesting that one of our retired presidents of late that often warned us of raising sea levels retired to Martha’s Vineyard to a $17,000,000 house he got for $12,000,000 and sits about 6’ above sea level. What was he thinking of. Well last I read they are getting a second home likely for winter use and it is on the site of Magnum PI old place The Robin’s Nest in Hawaii that is getting tore down. The new place comes with a personal sea wall so that should help with raising seas but the neighbors don’t have one. Both locations look like great Kayak spots though. :canoe:

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You don’t have to go to China to see it, but China is a great example. After NAFTA a lot of my industry went to Mexico. Cheap labor was the talking point, but lack of regulation was the bigger driver IMO. I went down to do some work in a new plant and found a small building at the far back of the property as far from the main buildings as it could with a flume of smoke rolling out of it. When I asked what is going on back there thinking it was sewage being burned or something. I was told oh that’s where we take the old insulation off the copper for recycling. I said you can’t burn that stuff it is carcinogenic. They told me you are not in Kansas anymore Dorothy. I said oh I thought it was sewage being burned. They said oh no we use that to water the grass on the playground next door.

We get super focused on living in the greatest country on Earth and when you get out and about your focus changes. We are not perfect maybe a long way from perfect, but still so much better than some of the places some think we should be like.

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A cursory search shows it was covered, and reported by many news organizations in multiple countries, not just re-syndicated.

Dago, you are so off in the weeds it’s sad. You have really had too much rt wing Kool Aid. There is gas lighting going on but which way?

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Cruise ships can chop anything to less than an inch and dump it in the ocean. ANYTHING!

The hardest position in the world to take is one in the middle or one that is skeptical of both sides of any argument and then make an informed decision based on actual reality.

When I hear someone is off in the weeds and is drinking the right wing kool-aid and then the suggestion is analyze a situation in search of the real truth, I get the feeling the person asking has a strong bias in one direction. Continued pursuit to have a conversation where maybe the real truth could be agreed upon is very unlikely to happen as the person asking for the other to view something openly is themselves biased to the point of not ever looking openly at the issue.

I will give you and example. When covid19 first reared its ugly head I started doing some research and listing to all I could about its origins. I knew nothing so I listened to all possible explanations of what was going on and then did independent verification of all sides that were in this case radically different. I was talking to my sister and I told her I thought the virus was manufactured in China in a lab and that lab was at the location of ground zero and the wet market story didn’t hold up for a number of reasons. She got so mad and told me I was drinking the right wing kool-aid and I better change the channel and get out of the weeds. Because she was family and we really do care for each other I tried to explain more telling her about doctors that worked in the lab coming out and some science about what kind of research they do in the lab. Nothing was going to change her frame of reality as she felt she was correct and informed and viewing the issue from a neutral viewpoint. Now a year later more and more facts and science is out there to be viewed and everything points in a direction her position didn’t support. We finally see each other in person after a year and I don’t mention it at all, but she brings it up going double down how extreme they went to make up lie after lie to make it seem their point of view was correct. I said why would they do that, no one cares where it came from anymore.

It is very hard to stay in the middle and look at both sides, most people want company and take a side. It is why nothing gets done.

My 1979 college meteorology book refutes pretty much everything you say Dago. And I don’t remember it that way either when I was considering becoming a meteorologist or climatologist. The only question was whether the cooling trend that started in the 40s would stop on its own or be overtaken by CO2 induced global warming, and many scientists said “both”.

Its in the book, so I don’t have to reply on selective memory.

To be honest I didn’t pay a lot of attention to cooling and warming in 1979, but looking at it now I wonder why according to the NOAA graph the earth was warming slowly from 1910 to 1944 and then mostly stable till 1977. By 1979 there wasn’t enough time to identify any kind of a trend but that’s when there was all this talk of cooling trend and a new ice age or potentially the cooling somehow causing warming do to a bounce back from CO2.

It seems like around 1979 at least based on the temp one would say great this 34 year warming trend looks like it ended around 1944-45. It really wasn’t a cooling trend it was more the end of a heating trend according to NOAA data anyway.

Exactly. “we” ship our unsafe/high disposal cost waste to third world countries and wash our hands of it. They deal with it there in typical third world fashion. Mexico is a beautiful country, but a dumping ground country like most third world countries.

The US govt says a manufacturer (western forge) cannot use a rust inhibitor on their tooling, so they have to use a far more expensive one. The same tool in hecho in mejico or china uses what cannot be used in the US…so they deliver a better product at a lower cost to the US market. And who pays the price? The US workers and the US consumers.

Unless china, india, and mexico are forced to abide by the same rules as the US is, all of this ‘save the world’ rules and desires are BS that do nothing but stuff the bank accounts of the corps and financial class while enabling a tiny, fringe minority to control the choices other people can make.

And of course it’s “rules for thee, not for me” people. They want rail to go up to I-70 from denver to the ski areas in hopes of easing congestion. Oh, and they want it so YOU will take the train up to the mountains so the roads will be less congested for their drive. Many examples.

For those that discount human impacts on the atmosphere, they have but to consider the connection of human produced chlorofluorocarbons and halons causing a loss of Ozone in the atmosphere. The size of the ozone hole over Antarctica was increasing until a ban on them was put in place. The latest info I have seen is that hole has now become smaller.

A mere one cell organism cyanobacteria forming colonies call stromatolites in ancient oceans were responsible for changing the earth’s atmosphere from a reducing carbon rich one to an oxidizing one simply by utilizing the carbon to grow and producing waste in the form of oxygen. Currently humanity seems to be reversing that process with waste carbon.

I think it is logical to expect fluctuations in the weather. I don’t see them as a reason to discount what science is telling us about human induced climate change. Because of the increased energy into the atmospheric/oceanic system the jet stream will have greater disruptions increasing the frequency of a winter polar vortex and stationary high pressure systems. Summer time lows in the Atlantic are forming earlier and more frequently. The frequency of such fluctuations seem to be increasing as a result. This does not discount that the earth through natural means doesn’t change the climate over time. Neither does it mean that humans can’t influence the same.

I always am amused at how liberal progressives are programmed. Look up the mechanics of how a cult operates and people will see that’s the world that liberal progressives reside in. Their “rebuttles” for any debate point is to immediately dismiss it and throw out some labels. Yet they never address the point of it. I think that’s because they only have sources of “information” that comes from likeminded people/institutions, they only have likeminded ‘friends’, and live a pretty insulated experience.
What? Yes, most liberal progressives are affluent white people who live in affluent white areas where they reinforce each other’s worldview…and are quick to punish anyone who puts forth something that doesn’t come from their pipeline of talking points.

I’ll make this easier as examples.
Why is voter ID racist? Don’t you have to have an ID to register to vote?

“Immigration is our strength” as the justification of having open borders now. OK, with our society becoming more and more technically advanced, manufacturing and jobs requiring more and more education and training, how is it that bringing in millions of illiterate third worlders with no education nor any skills helping our nation? Wouldn’t it be better, make our nation ‘stronger’ to encourage people to immigrate here who are educated and skilled so they can contribute to our society and economy?

Why can’t we have immigration laws like canada? Or like mexico? Why aren’t they racist for having immigration laws?
Do you know what john podesta said to his clinton coterie in those emails about immigration? Have you even heard of these things? “Demographics is our destiny” is what he said. You know that though because people like me are uneducated people who only are capable of repeating what entertainers say, so you know about that, right?
For the record, I have a masters degree.

There is no such thing as “gun violence”. If there is, then rape is “p*nis violence”. But giving you that, if democrats care about people being shot w/guns, why are they indifferent to 98% of the people shooting/shot? They are black/brown people shooting black/brown people in democrat ran cities. Neither the NRA/GOA nor white suburban/rural gun owners have anything to do with that, so why the focus on us?
Why not incarcerate these black/brown people who are caught with stolen guns and use them to commit felonies?

Do you know how much censorship is taking place in our nation? The people who rely on the sphere of information that is filtered often do not know they are ignorant because information is being with held from them. They don’t know what they don’t know and are programmed to immediately dismiss any info not of that sphere.

Censorship is heavy in society now and our history is being erased or changed. Hitler and his nsdap were leftists btw. Many examples, but a horse has to want to drink water to begin with.

Who is to say what normal is? If you are a one cell organism cyanobacteria you are hoping for higher CO2 I guess to allow your colony to grow and prosper something in return will then have to sink the excess O2 and then a balance will be reached.

I have seen studies done where fields were tented and CO2 levels doubled and corn yield went off the charts. The rapidly growing corn then put off record O2 levels.

Some scientists feel we are and have been at a low carbon point for a long time.

When and what the perfect level of CO2? Maybe we go back to 5000 BC or whenever the Sphinx was built as all indications show great amounts of rain eroded the surface over 1000s of years and it was built on fertile wet grounds. I don’t know if they had aerosol cans and gasoline autos back then that changed things, but some serious climate change occurred.

We well could be messing up the planet. I don’t know and maybe CO2 is helping it change in a good way. I just don’t think we have only 12 years left until gloom and doom overcomes us all. That is the narrative I hear a lot as to why I need to not eat red meat or drink real milk.

A few years back I bought a hot tub and started looking at where they were made. The trend was to move the shell production to Mexico. I thought that odd as that part of the process is fairly automated and the assembly of it is labor intensive and some companies were keeping that here. The more I looked into it again it was regulations on the fiberglass process and the hotter process made a stronger better tub but was being phased out because of out gassing during the cure. So move that part just south of the boarder and its fine to do. Then bring them up here and finish them up.

I was tasked once to move a motor coil production plant to Mexico. I asked why would we do that? The answer I got was to take advantage of the 25 cent per hour labor. I replied back but the process is nearly 100% automated and there is no labor except skilled tech we wont find down there. I was told oh no not like we do here like we did in 1950 here low tech and high labor. I said the reason we went away from that is to improve quality along with reducing cost, but quality will suffer. Then I was told to just do it. So I did and quality took a huge hit once down there and I was tasked to improve quality so I added in automation a few years later and then the tech support was unable to keep it running so I was flying people down all the time to keep it going. As mentioned above the only plus if you want to call it that is the lack of regulations good and bad.

The CO2 levels were indeed low during the Quaternary glaciation of the last two million years. As low as 180 ppm. Over the last 10,000 years it has been around 280 ppm. Currently it is 417 ppm. Back before the industrial revolution in 1800 it is estimated to be 283ppm. The world population was 978,000,000. Today’s is 7,900,000,000. An 8 fold increase in a heavily industrialized world.

a tent over a small plot of corn doesn’t address anything about climate change. Could you tell me how the CO2 was doubled. Was it pumped in? Of course you increase oxygen by photosynthesis. how much CO2 was then increased when the corn rotted or the ethanol made from it burned. Did they study the full carbon cycle or just the growing stage of corn?

Check this graph and tell me we aren’t influencing the CO2 level in the atmosphere.
CO2 since 1800 (

I can also point to anecdotal evidence from my experience. I am a wildlife biologist, working in the field every May, in the mid-Atlantic area, for more than 20 years. When I started, it was rare that we would have days warm enough for just a shirt, in early May. Typical clothes were a windbreaker, a vest or fiberpile sweater, and a shirt. It was pretty common to need all my layers and still be cold. By the end of May we would have warmer days, of course, but they stood out as a nice change from the cooler weather we had been subject to the previous 2 or 3 weeks.

These days, I am in just a shirt before May even gets here, most days. I rarely need all my layers. Typical wear is just a windbreaker or a light sweater, and I often remove them during the heat of the day. That, of course, is the average, as last year was actually quite cool, compared to recent years. But the trend, that things are getting warmer, is clear to me.

The problem with climate warming is it is not simple. Add the variability of weather, and it is easy to cherry pick the data to support your point. But it is clear from many pieces of evidence that we humans have caused the global climate to warm at a pace that appears to be outstripping the ability of many organisms to adapt. I have worked on conserving some of them. Anyone who wants to look at the evidence would be wise to start with the IPCC, a well done compilation of what is known. Not easy reading, complex and very detailed. One thing they have done really well is that the uncertainties are explicitly included. Worth a read if you really want to be informed.

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Are you suggesting we get rid of 7 out of 8 people on the earth? That would be one solution I believe they are doing something like that in China. The more humans the more consumption the greater the industrial demand. Combine that with creature comforts we have grown to expect and peoples lack of self-sufficiency placing the burden on the industrial solutions agricultural and other. There are 3,531,905 square miles in the USA and a population of 328,000,000 or 1/10 of a square mile per person or 65 acres per person.

How many people do you know that if you gave them 50 acres could self sustain on it for even a month. So we need a complex society with industrialized factories and agricultural to keep us all happy and healthy. During all this industrialized time and even with the increase in population growth the average age of people in industrialized first world has steadily increased as has the relative real age of people.

Yes the CO2 was brought in with a tanker truck and used in the experiment, and yes for the total carbon cycle to be understood the carbon that was short term stored would be released if burned or rotted. The point being if we don’t find a way to get rid of say 5 trillion people quickly the food yield is also improved with greater CO2 in the air. All plant life good and bad requires CO2.

As to people noticing temp changes year to year say over the last 20 years. According to the NOAA chart that is the average temps for the whole world for a whole year. And that’s a lot of averaging going on so you can expect more variance at any local point. It shows something like .3 degrees C over that span with year-to-year fluctuations of both up and down of a good 1/3 of that total. I know I swear it was more bitter cold and winters lasted 8 months when I was a kid and now they seem to be over before they start. But when I look back at my local weather history and snow falls and such I see I remember some and not some selectively. I also was told my blood got thicker in the winter and that’s why in the fall 40F feels like zero and in the spring 40F you are running around in a T-shirt. I know that is not true. But it sure seemed like it.

I don’t dispute the CO2 number has went up. Or maybe the sea levels have went up a fraction of an inch. I don’t dispute 8 trillion people will have some impact even.

Hi Greg, I too worked in wildlife. Was a fisheries biologist with FL Game and Fish. Worked for UF on grant money after a masters degree in Wildlife Ecology. When we made the move to SC after the grant work was done I became a commercial beekeeper. I have a daughter who is a professor of animal physiology, and a son-in-law that is a professor of herpetology. I find all science of interest, and read about every new discovery I come across regardless of the field of science, not just the biological. A biologist I greatly admire is E.O. Wilson.

Have been an outdoorsman all my life. I tend to think in biological, ecological, environmental terms because of my experience. I believe most people see the world through a human perspective lens. They see the world of humanity as somehow apart from the natural world. I think many of the people who spend time in the outdoors like the paddlers here, feel a closer connection to the natural word than most.

What I find disturbing is how easily the laws of nature are discounted by people who think they don’t apply to us.

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Humans are somewhat outside the ecosystems of nature and it is by choice. In nature it is by human terms a very cruel place. Survival of the fittest right? Natural selection?

Culture of man has evolved away from these found in nature and we feel these set us apart from the wild world. On top of that we feel we can improve on nature and natures ways. We now have every kind of GMO there is, plants and animals.

One of my favorite topics with neighbors around here is all winter they insist on feeding the whitetail deer. They bring home trunk loads of feed and they enjoy watching the deer eat. Needless to say the population expands beyond the limits of the area and they ether migrate to farm lands where the farmers take care of them or they become a problem in residential areas and then heard management comes into play. I tell people leave then alone and they will self regulate the population better than when you help. They tell me they will starve to death if I don’t feed them and I say if you do next summer the game commission will come in and thin them out and you wont like that as well.

Our civilized society with rule of law changes a lot of what nature would have for us. In nature if my neighbor has something and I want it and I’m bigger I just go take it. Oh wait a minute I was watching the news this morning that is what we are evolving back to.