Yes when in busy navigation areas
First, as you say above you don’t paddle where there is a lot of boat traffic. So with all due respect your opinion on the necessity of this is not relevant for someone who paddles where this is an issue.
As to words that get used - on evening paddles with newer paddlers on our local rivers I usually tell folks to stay between the channel markers and the shore nearest to that marker. It’s not fancy but it works.
But if you are in some of the areas we paddle in Maine, you often don’t have that kind of visual fix. The channel markers are for working boats that will be coming in on auto-pilot - and fast - at day’s end to the myriad of smaller harbors. The markers are often well out from an easily identified land mass and there will be a shoreline in better than half the directions you can look. Using visual clues like staying between the markers and the nearest land mass can put someone right in the middle of the channel.
So you need something directional that both keeps you pod going the same way and keeps people out of the way of motor boats. This is where port and starboard get more important. If you need to put out a message on the VHF radio that your group is going to cross a busy channel, you HAVE to use the correct terms for other marine craft to know where you are going. If you are trying to monitor traffic levels to tell when it is safe to cross, or where there may be traffic that you want to avoid, again you have to be using the same terms as the big boats.
Port and starboard absolutely do matter in some situations, it just appears those are not the ones in which you paddle.
Left Handed People
Drink Port With their left hands
Blood River Kentucky Lake??
When headed east from Irvin Cobb, down the Blood River arm of the lake towards the Tennessee River, the Red buoys are on the starboard/right/south side of the channel, and the green buoys are on the port, left, north side of the Blood River embayment. Exactly backwards of the red/right/returning rule used most places. Don’t know why, when going towards the Tennessee River you are definitely headed downstream on the Blood River…
Anybody know why? Is it a TVA thing?
oh, knowing how to stay in the marked navigation channel during the MO340 race is a definite advantage.
Joe
Orientation is part of a larger system
As above, you need to be aware that the red right thing is exactly opposite of correct if you are entering a harbor from what is essentially marked as its exit to the next one up in the system in Maine. You probably have a similar situation around you.
Harbors exist both as individual entities and as a part of a larger network along a stretch of coastline. In an area of broad, wide open harbors the effect of that on channel buoys is not so obvious. But it is very visible in areas like the coast of Maine, with smaller harbors close together and tucked into small pockets behind islands. So you really see the “in” side of the harbor (relative to the larger system) and the “out” side. On one of those sides it’ll be green right returning.
You also have to realize that this is more confusing in a paddle boat, where you are low in the water and tend to see at most a couple of markers at a time, versus a motor boat where the operator is higher up and has a quite long sight line. Those folks can see the larger pattern much more easily.
FWIW, it was not easy for me to get an answer on this one. We had long since sussed out that the harbors around where we vacation had an in and an out, but weren’t sure of why. When I did finally press for an answer from someone, it was someone who sailed. The overall network was so obvious to him that it took me a couple of rounds before he realized that was what we didn’t know.
Clarification perhaps?
Well, the poster I originally replied to made a blanket statement about it being necessary to take a boating class if one is not familiar with these terms. I simply said the terms are not relevant in most situations. In response to you, I say that the simple fact that I don't live where there's major shipping doesn't have any bearing on what I said to that person. The fact remains that thousands of very active boaters will spend their entire lives in small boats and never say or hear the words "port" and "starboard", and that sure doesn't make anyone of them unqualified to point it out.
In any case, I'm curious about two things. First, I'm wondering how keeping your group together requires the use of these words. You are talking to them face to face, right? Even in the Navy the commander gives orders to turn the ship "left" or "right" when adjusting course, though I understand that they do use "port" and "starboard" for describing the orientation of some other object or ship relative to the vessel they are on. Can you give an example of what you would tell someone in your group that actually requires the use of "port" and "starboard" when telling them where to go? After all, when operating a car, bicycle or airplane you can describe turning left and right, and point out other objects as being to the right or left of the machine you are driving, so why not do so when with your fellow paddlers?
Second, you say "If you need to put out a message on the VHF radio that your group is going to cross a busy channel, you HAVE to use the correct terms for other marine craft to know where you are going." The key point of my question refers to telling them "where you are going." How does describing your physical location on the channel, and your direction of travel across the channel, require the use of "port" and "starboard"? Shouldn't you provide your location along the channel, and tell them in which direction you will be crossing (such as going north or south across a channel that's aligned east-west)? I could see if your were speaking directly to the captain of a particular ship when doing so, and planning to let the ship pass close alongside, but I'm only addressing what you actually said.
My main point is that for the huge majority of us, who avoid paddling into the path of other boats, and when operating a small motorboat ourselves know what to do when coming near another based on relative orientations/headings/closure rate, knowing left and right already get the job done. I paddle the backwaters of the Mississippi and need to cross the main channel fairly often, where on a weekend there can sometimes be hundreds of boats per hour going by, most of them going 40 to 50 mph. When the pleasure boaters aren't numerous, the barges are still there. To cross the channel, I use the same method as that used by a farmer who's walking to and from his mailbox on the other side of the road. It can require waiting as long as ten minutes for a break in traffic, but I'm not thinking about port and starboard. If the poster I originally replied to is correct, no one should even let their kids cross the street until they're in high school and have had a driver's education class.
As I said…
There are areas where visual fixes just plain aren't going to work because of distances and unclear shorelines. The only way that can be absolutely proven is if you paddle in some of the area I am talking about.
As to channel crossings, yes it is preferable to use compass headings and indications of a path related to a land mass - in addition to other information. But it's just plain courtesy as well as prudent to have the basic terminology. I suspect too that there is a difference in the education about boating between pleasure boaters along many inland waterways and captains of larger commercial vessels along most ocean coastline areas.
This is one where it is agree to disagree.
Makes no difference
I row a lot, not that it matters, because this should be common sense to anyone. When rowing, I face the stern of the boat, but it is STILL the stern, and therefore the left side of the boat is STILL the left side of the boat. Thus, if I'm in the middle of a big group of canoes and kayaks and they all make a left turn, I make a left turn too and stay right among them. This goes for pointing out things that are one side of the boat or the other as well. That never changes either. I fail to see why you would be confused by this. If you are a passenger in a car and turn around to get something from the back seat while the driver is making a left turn, do you find yourself believing that the car actually turned right? Do you need to specify that the turn was made "toward the driver's side" to describe which way the car actually went? Does the right door of your car become the left if you look at the car from the wrong side?
can you show me Celia …
...... on one of these charts (NOAA) what you were saying about green being on right when returning inland .
I like to see it so I can understand why it would be that way .
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/Catalogs/atlantic_chartside.shtml
I can look at it if you tell me what chart # , and a brief discrip. of where to look on the chart . I tried looking at the linked one (13324) from the Maine coast but couldn't find unusual sided green or red markers , do you see what you were mentioning anywhere on there .
I found what you say confusing…
And I bet anyone who has ever done more than move a paddle boat around would too.
I am accustomed to more than paddle craft - I had a junior certification in NYS when I was a teenager because it was the only way I could legally drive the cute little motor boat that my father built. So I had to take a course and learn port and starboard and all that stuff. We go sailing with friends and they are silly enough to give me the tiller or the wheel for stretches during the paddle, and I did a little passenger-racing in a Sunfish with a friend in high school.
Bottom line - port means the left side of the boat and starboard means right, always from a bow-facing orientation. So yes if someone says left and I am facing backwards, my first response is likely to be what direction do they mean - my left hand or port? That's if I even ask. If I figure that the person should know basic marine terminology I may just turn to port (which would be my my right hand).
It is fairly unclear reading the above which way you'd be turning. It wouldn't be any better on the water. If you say port or starboard, then I know for sure what direction you are talking about.
just as a side note …
… about the red right return thing . Hearing it by one who is rather new to boating and not yet well studied “may” plant a misnomer in thier mind … they may associate a “red” light as being on the right of a vessel also .
Look up the charts for…
Friendship Harbor in Maine, Muscongus Bay. Or any of the small ones probably, but it should be very clear for this harbor.
I just tried linking to the NOAA charts above and only one worked, and it was going to be a PITA to figure out how to get to a useful magnification on that. We use charts from Blue Nav but I don't have that installed on this PC, and buy them in marine stores. I don't know if the NOAA charts are quite as detailed. If they don't include information like whether there are bells or lights on nav aids etc, I wouldn't trust them for much.
We have encountered it at spots around Bar Harbor as well but I can't tell you what marker numbers they were. It did make for an interesting moment when a coach wanted to do rescue practice right in the middle of a channel because they didn't realize red right wasn't going to work there. Happily a boat came thru just as I was ready to make a stink about it so disaster was averted.
For Friendship, the is an entrance point to the west coming in from the edges of Hatchett Cove, around the northwestern end of Friendship Long Island. There is another entrance to the east, around the other edge of Friendship Long Island and I think it is Garrison Island that forms the eastern boundary of that channel. It's a little round island anyway, look for a land bridge to Bradford Point that would be up at low tide.
Both channels are pretty narrow - not a place to be unsure of where you are when tired boat captains are coming in.
The channel markers extend a bit out for these two narrow points around islands, but the final markers at the narrowest spot show the green/red thing pretty well.
If there are rules saying boats have to come in one side and go out the other, we haven't seen anyone obeying them. So it's not just kayaks that may be going in an out side.
You find it unclear? Serously?
You say
"It is fairly unclear reading the above which way you'd be turning."
The left side of the boat is the left side whether I am paddling facing the bow, or rowing facing the stern. That's why a left turn is always a left turn. It's defined by the boat's orientation in space, not by people on board. Seems pretty simple to me. How about the car example? Your car has a left side and a right side, but do you ever lose track of which is which? Do right turns become left turns the instant you glance in the rear-view mirror? I can't understand how or why you see boats in such a different way than cars.
You say you are sure others would be confused by this, but honestly, I've never been on the water with someone who couldn't decide which side of the boat was the left side, or who might confuse a left turn with a right turn any time they were facing some direction other than toward the bow.
Starboard Mnemonic
Red right is (w)rong.
So your only problem is…
with asking people to remember that left and port are synonymous?
First of all, if you expect people to always regard the left and right in a boat as being based on bow facing, you are asking way more than actual incidents have shown that newer paddler or motor boat operators are able to keep straight. There is a reason that a lot of paddlers stay off of Lake George during the height of the season - NY state has no license or education requirements for adult motor boat operators. And the track record regularly makes this painfully obvious.
Second, if all you are talking about is whether to call it left or port, and port is the common term used by professional marine operators, why are you arguing about it? That’s the world we are in when we are on the water with major traffic. Learning two words is not a lot to ask of anyone with an average I, or anyone I’d want to be in a difficult situation on the water with…
My logic is much simpler than that.
If you need to tell the captain of a large vessel that he is passing close by your group, and soon you will be close along his port side so that he isn't in doubt about what's going on when he finally sees you, great. I'm just saying that if you are aware of your boat's orientation in space (how could you NOT be aware of such a thing), then you will also know what someone means when they say "turn left". There is a countless variety of machines on which the operators are saying "turn left" every day, and no one gets confused. No one needs a special way of defining which side is which for every machine on this earth that moves - except boats. That's why I've never met anyone who is confused about this on the water.
Now remember, I'm not saying this nautical terminology is wrong. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, and if I were in your shoes I'd get in the habit of saying port and starboard. Also, just remember that the whole reason I got into this was that someone stated that anyone who doesn't use these terms with familiarity needs educating. I've never seen a reason that boaters who are outside the influence of the seafaring world need to use seafaring terms. If you did use such words here, people would have to think for a moment to figure out what you were trying to tell them. My whole point is that it is not "necessary" to force a new terminology on people who are doing fine without it.
thanks Celia , I see …
… what you were talking about .
Friendship Harbor passage around the northern tip of Friendship Long Island , is heading inland from Davis Cove side > towards Hatchet Cove side .
If you go through the Friendship passage the other way , you are heading out to sea , and green “will be” on your right . This is the way they are calling it because the ocean is east of Friendship (and south) … all points west and north of Friendship are farther inland .
I looked over the whole chart , and all the markers are as I would expect them to be … if I were running a boat around in the Muscongus Bay waters as charted , I would definately keep red on my right and green on my left heading inland and the opposite heading to sea .
But there is no doubt one better have a dependable chart to navigate those waters , it’s has numerous tight and twisty passes with plenty of shoal , shallow hump and go bang things if you are on the wrong side of the markers . It’s not a one way passage through Friendship Harbor , is just heading in or out , but it definately takes a chart to know which way is which . It’s not backwards Celia but I can see how it could appear to be .
NOAA chart # 13301 … http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/13301.shtml
This is the diff with paddle boats
As you can see on that chart - there is one side where, if you enter the harbor keeping red on your right thru the last markers in, I think it is the side with day markers last in, it puts the paddler in the channel.
The way you talked about this explains what I was saying. When piloting a larger craft, you tend to be attentive to and use the courses that are hashed out on the charts. For a paddle boat, the major value of those things is to know where you shouldn't be or, in some conditions where your safest deeper water passage is going to be. They are not much about your actual course in the way they are for larger craft like motor boats and sail boats.
Also, in a narrower passage like Friendship at each end, both color markers are darned close. The channel width isn't great for say two lobster boats to run thru at one time. Both those markers are very near to you and the backwards appearance is huge.
As to the heading inland to Hatchett Cove... that may be a read for that particular passage, but it doesn't explain the marker that I can't remember which violated the rule in the Bar Harbor area. There wasn't a handy pocket-harbor anywhere near that spot and it was well out from the mainland. Unfortunately I am not going to be able to relocate it because I can't remember which island we were near.
The question was…
“Do you drive your boat looking backwards?”
Was the question I was answering.
BTW, I don’t usually ‘drive’ my boat. But, I have no issue with someone who drives their boat or sails or paddles their car.
One can use any terms one wants. Some prefer to use more specific or appropriate terms.
I’m afraid if someone yells ‘look left’, I look to my left. That may or may not be port or river left…
paddle craft and power boats …
...... no doubt channel passages around and amongst an area with many islands can be darn narrow ... we have several I am familiar with here in the Chesapeake bay region ... Kent Narrows pops immediately to mind . It's just like you said about Friendship pass and many of the others I see on that Muscongus bay area chart . Two boats passing head on need to be careful and keep it slow , not much room for error between the channel markers .
Though I don't paddle the tidal really , plenty of folks do . With the power boats buzzing about and generally staying between markers in channel ... it seems a paddle craft would probably be well advised to travel off side of channel outside the lane .
I guess (??) you all do that as much as possible . paddle craft don't need much water depth and can go virtually anywhere , unlike a power boat ... we run through shallows and shoal when we want to (outside of markers), but you can bet we won't be moving much faster than someone paddling when in 3' of water with possible submerged stuff to bump into . When I say we , I mean me and mine , because there are some (nutheads) buzzing through the shallows sometimes ... I figure it's just a matter if time until they learn either by smashing bottom or one day actually looking a chart and saying Oh S**t it was only that deep (all looks the same on top doesn't it , :-) .
It was fun going over Muscongus bay chart . I'm glad you get to paddle around in it , neat looking area (plenty big too) with so much to discover in there . Got some deep water I noticed also , looks like good fishing and I expect more power boats buzzing around than anybody wants to see , even other power boaters , lol :-) .
Thanks for sharing about the Muscongus , Celia ... I enjoyed the intro .
Something else comes to mind about narrow passes around islands ... the current can really get up some big speed through them during tide run . I'll bet there are many places you go through where you really "need to know" when it's moving and which way you want to be going at that time .
Actually, mostly working boats and sailb
Muscongus has the highest concentration of lobster pots of any bay in Maine and is free of most of the heavy commercial traffic (like freighters and big ferries) you can encounter in the bays on either side. That means that it is relatively free of joy-riding fools. It also has a few unmarked rocks. The locals know to have baskets around their motors and/or go slow, but outsiders usually don't last long before they foul their blade on a lobster pot line or encounter one of those local knowledge rocks.
There are also lots of MITA islands at fairly reachable distances.
As a result it's a relatively stress free place to paddle as long as you are courteous to the working boats and give them room. I've known of people who got into battles with the local fishermen over launching off their working docks, but I've never understood why anyone would even open up the question. There are tons of places to launch a paddle boat where you are not getting in the way of people earning a living.