Wow, canoeing is confusing
It seems that opposing viewpoints and terminology all can prevail at the same time.
A correction maneuver is different from a correction stroke except when it isn’t.
A bow paddler can or can’t initiate a turn, or maybe he can or can’t depending on whether the water is moving or not (relative to what?).
The power should be in the bow and the finesse in the stern. No, wait, I have an opinion on this one. In years of running technical whitewater and slalom gates, I formed the impression that the better and more finessed paddler should be in the bow, responsible for making the immediate tactical decisions and boat moves, with the lug in the stern (me) mostly providing power, complementary leans and turning strokes, and gross directional changes. I didn’t invent that viewpoint; it was “suggested” to me by more experienced folk – mainly including my bow paddler.
Of course, it is different and more difficult in whitewater because the paddlers use current differentials, velocity shadows, wave faces, wave troughs, and gravity to maneuver and turn the boat. Perhaps that changes the elephant into a hippo, or vice versa.
It surely gets all bollixed up if the team doesn’t work together … which they rarely do … which is why somebody in Minnesota or New York or Florida first invented the divorce in 1880 … and then the solo canoe in 1980, after paddlers and people in general stopped getting married.
I agree with the poster who stated or suggested that the most effective and elegant way to propel a tandem flatwater canoe forward is the hut, hut Minnesota switch. Synchronized bentshafts flashing in the sunlight: beautiful.
More vectors
If you’re doing draw or pry strokes (or correction strokes), then you’re absolutely right – the stern vector is farther from the pivot point and will have more turning effect, everything else being equal.
However, we’re talking about a forward stroke here. From a pure mechanics standpoint, the torque is proportional to the perpendicular distance from the pivot point to the force vector. For a “pure” forward stroke, this distance is the distance between your stroke path and the keel line (assuming the pivot point is somewhere along the keel). It doesn’t matter where you are along the keel line.
Now, of course, this is just looking at it from a simple high-school physics viewpoint. I don’t dispute that, most of the time, a tandem canoe will tend to turn to the stern paddler’s offside. Charlie Wilson gave an explanation earlier in the thread that would make sense – essentially indicating that the stern paddlers stroke is typically longer. There may be other factors relating to the fluid dynamics of the boat motion that play a role here. If so, I would be very interested in gaining a better understanding of what is going on.
of course you have an opinion
and I have not seen you at any events instructing and sharing your knowledge.
There is no need for a divorce boat. Since you like credentials, I have as much experience as you in years. My husband and I paddle together and do long trips when we can.. communication is the key.
Flatwater and moving water are different in that there is an additional vector in moving water.
Of course in whitewater the bow leads..and the stern is obliged to follow to avoid disaster.
Different Physics?
No, that misses the point. Kim's point is that the same thing would happen even if the weaker paddler were in the stern, and THAT is why her point about the pivot point shouldn't be brushed-off with an "I don't care". Another way of talking about pivot-point shift is to say that the stern "gets looser" with increasing speed, while the bow's position gets "tighter". Of course, putting the stronger paddler in the stern amplifies a boat-handling characterisic which is always present to some degree. When OP said he had to correct *because* he was the stronger paddler, Kim and Charlie simply put that statemtent into proper light, that being, being a stronger paddler only exaggerates what would happen in any case.
only true if
The boat is going straight and your strokes are perfectly parallel. That’s not real life. As soon as ANY angle develops the distance from the pivot point comes into play.
I don’t understand much of this
… Canoeing 501 course material. But here’s what I seem to have an intuitive grasp on: The bow is being driven like a wedge into clean water, making it relatively stable. The stern is following behind in much less less “stiff” eddy water. Hence, the bow will continue to drive straight with little deviation and the stern will quite happily move side to side in response to offset power inputs.
Right or Wrong?
Your analysis follows the static model used by Bill Mason and many others. It is a contrivance developed to help paddlers get on the right track to learning good technique and it works well, but is not good physics.It is only a theoretical picture, a good one for learning purposes, but only that.
We can show that for displacement hulls a straight course can result only from a force directly on and parallel to the centerline (CL). Any force acting on a hull outside the CL will result in a turning motion. This creates several types of points but for our purposes let’s stick with pivot point (PP). We also know that in a canoe (or kayak) the PP will move in a direction opposite the path of the paddles. In the case of the tandem forward stroke the paddles move to the rear and so the PP moves forward of the midpoint. This is further from the stern paddler’s blade and thus creates longer leverage, overpowering the bow paddler’s force virtually every time. Also consider than the instant the strokes begin the CL starts swinging around the PP and those nice “parallel to the centerline” strokes become almost immediately non-parallel, actually swinging the CL toward the stern paddlers blade and turning into a stern draw increasing yaw even more. At this point some sort of compensation must be made, to correct the course, either in the form of a correction stroke or switching sides. I attempt to state these concepts in everyday language, in hope to be understood.
Pagayeur
He just did share his knowledge
but you don’t seem to like it.
Does he have to go to a special event to become a knowledgeable canoe paddler.
If you go back and read all the responses above you can see where he is coming from.
I would hate to be a newbie trying to learn after reading the above.
I posted a reply to the OP in regards to one of his questions and related my wife and my experience, and encouraged him to give it a try, and I got jumped on by the “experts”.
If we all enjoy paddling and want to share our experiences why turn it into a war because you think you know more than someone else?
Cheers,
JackL
Not at all
Jackl; Not dissing your input at all. Sorry for the tardy response, kinda lost interest.
Why add to the confusion?
I have some problems with Glenn’s post. I think it offers very little clarification, but his first remarks seem designed to further confuse the issue. Sarcasm is the last thing the OP needs. Also, how does throwing in so many very esoteric and technical terms help the OP or the majority of folks who read this forum? It seems to me to be merely self serving and adds greatly to the confusion he so criticizes. His contention that WW is different and more difficult is just plain wrong. I agree that it is different, but not necessarily more difficult. It just requires a different type of learning. Lastly, support of the idea that sit and switch and correction style are mutually exclusive is bad advice. A paddler should not be advised to choose between them, but rather that knowledge of both is beneficial. The previous points being overlooked in his post is that the physics dictates both styles and it is beneficial to be able choose one or the other depending on conditions, goals, and paddler preference.
Pagayeur
Appreciate the help
Thanks for all the replys. Actually even the esoteric answers with vectors and fluid mechanics were of benefit. I think we will try the simple route, sit and switch and throw in an occasional corrective stroke.
It seems paddling is like any other sport such as golf for example, keep it simple or get all caught up in technique. Ill utilize KISS for now.
Thanks again.
J
The Path of the Paddle
The Path of the Paddle
in Mason jars
lose what flows
till waxed over
crystaline perfection
preserves in flavor
a substance
without core
essence of liquid.
Or, as you KISS’d upon, go out there, see what works for you and tastes good/fun, then choose what sages, salts, and peppery spices will flavor the stew you stir.
Just watch out for Jsaults 30-yr. old supply of cumins and goins.
TW