Leecock?!! Time for Weatherhelm 101?
Speak for your own Q700!!!L My version 2 does not leecock at all (except with full skeg - as it should).
Perhaps you keep too much junk on the foredeck to catch the wind L? I’m also guessing that any sensation of “leckocking” you have had was with the rudder deployed. A rudder acts like a fully deployed skeg - and if you are not constantly correcting with turning inputs - the boat WILL tend to leecock with rudder down. Another reason I why I prefer skegs on sea kayaks. Rudder is all or nothing in this regard. I don’t need CLR shifted aft ALL the time and don’t want to waste energy correcting for it (even if I don’t notice it). If you understand clearly how a skeg works - you will understand this side effect of rudders.
Anyway - a distinction needs to be made regarding waetherhelm. What a boat does when just sitting is not relevant. If you’re not moving - the boat isn’t really weather cocking or leecocking - it’s drifting and twisting in the wind. Add waves to the scenario and all boats turn into the trough and take the waves on the beam.
Only performance underway is relevant, as that is what can be designed in and what can be altered with skeg, rudder, or cockpit shifts. It is unfair to say a boat leecocks or weathercocks if it only does it drifting (or only with neutral rudder/full skeg).
Weathercocking/Leecocking are not caused by "a lot of freeboard on a 700, and the plumb nose is that much more area for the wind to grab hold of ". It is cause by pressure differences on the hull. When underway, the bow is somewhat pinned in the direction of travel, cutting water, so the bow is in a higher pressure area. In a properly designed kayak, the stern is not as “pinned” and in a relatively lower pressure area. When wind exerts pressure from the side (and freeboard will increase the total force) - the part of the hull under lower pressure from the passing water moves to the side more easily than the part under higher pressure from the passing water. That makes the stern skid out and causes the boat to turn into the wind (weathercock). It is the degree of stern “looseness” and bow “stickiness” that primarily determines how huch a kayak weathercocks.
To “tighten” up the stern and reduce how much it skids out in side winds you need to shift the CLR aft (by rudder, skeg, or cockpit move). Go too far with this and the boat will leeckock, but I assure you the version 2 Q700 is not shifted that far back. It still weathercocks slightly - which is desirable for control.
To leecock, the stern needs to have more resistance to lateral (side) forces than the bow. Normally it take a lot of skeg or rudder to alter the balance this much. A boat that leecocks without rudder or skeg is quite dangerous as it can be uncontrolable in wind.
Or something like that.
Agree - don’t worry
New should be as good or better for most folks. I just find mine is fine as is. New position is a sort of compromise - and since the other two worked - and this one is in between - it will too.
Please be aware that some of the recent discussion is over fine points that probably don’t affect 90% of normal paddling.
Rudder mount still sucks. The original didn’t have the mount problems - but not because the cocpit was farther forward - but because it had a different rudder. Old rudder with newer SealLine toe pilot controls would be a nice compromise.
If I had the rudder - I’d be customizing it somehow. But then, I customized the skeg. Must be me.
Here’s several pictures for you
Courtesy of P’netters & Webshots (couldn’t use my own since I have the skeg!). Not all 700s - but rudder looks the same on all QCCs:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/133722046/133722914pzuewE
http://community.webshots.com/photo/96949933/96951067IZmRjs
http://community.webshots.com/photo/98037414/98039409wcFYUP
http://community.webshots.com/photo/101437801/101440505FNpDvx
http://community.webshots.com/photo/68760964/68761891eyvIqN
BTW: What is it with you people and your butt ugly bilge pumps on the decks of those pretty boats!? Stow that gear mateys! Ever head of under deck bags (keep it slid in above it - not in it), knee tubes, or just plain Velcro loops? Huge cockpits and you folks have something you rarely use stuck on deck. Aside from looks, safety gear where it could wash out in a capsize (water packs a punch) ain’t too good either. Your life.
PS willyboy - Don’t go with the skeg becuase the rudder looks weird - go with it because it works!
Thanks
Thanks to everybody who helped me out! I’m getting the Q700X and can hardly wait till it gets here. It’ll be my first composit.
Rudder Idea…
While looking at Greyaks 700 pics I got to wondering how the rudder in the up position would affect rolling… Then I had an idea… If you didn’t use your rudder all that much, what if you could tie a little bitty paddle float on it??? That would certainly help in rolling…
Sort of a vetical S******n… GH
careful or I will get Kwikle involved…
I have a skeg also.
It most definitely leecocks sitting still, Mr. Airwave and I did an experiment, using landmarks and compass, and I was most definitely turning downwind whilst he in his caribou was turning upwind (side note, both boats were better behaved in the wind than several others that i’ve paddled).
I disagree about leecocking not being important when sitting still, a slight weathercock is more desireable, as you are really at your most unstable while not moving fwd. Keeping your orientation to the wind helps keep an eye on the waves also.
The 8" aft move was probly too much. the stern is anchored moreso than the bow, and all other things being equal, the wind will push me downwind when Im sitting still and empty. Moving fwd slightly loosens up the stern(high presser at the bow,low at stern yadda yadda yadda), and at that point the bow walks upwind.
BTW, the 700 has a VERY loose stern considering the WL and length. Paddling a silhoutte after being in the 700 all day was like being on rails. Of course, putting 100 lbs of gear/food in the 700 will make it much more manageable without slowing it down overmuch.
Disagree on one, agree on another
Like I said - I have not noticed any leecocking. Get the junk off your foredeck!
To be fair, I don’t sit much - usually moving. When I do, I find it goes beam to waves as any other kayak would - haven’t noticed and strong wind related tendancies when sitting still.
I do agree it is quite manuverable for that much LWL. Remarkably so once you get the feel for it.
Very funny GH
Now stop making fun of the erect rudder owners! Don’t want to get them more upset do you? Their kayaks are already flipping you the bird!
Endurance Events
have a friend of a friend who works for Pfister; maybe he can get me some stickers for the side of my boat. Wonder if they make warning stickers for events lasting over four hours…
zactly, under foredeck bungies
I had a friend who put his pump on the far aft deck paddle bungie,why not stick it in the compartment!
Rudder Drag
I’ve read that the rudder braket on an upright rudder drags in the water. Doese this occur all the time or only when it’s loaded down? Is this a problem I should ask Phil (I hope there’s still time) about or is it just a minor inconvience? Please excuse my seamingly trivial qustions but I’m just trying to get it right. This is my first composite and I’m a little nervous about something going wrong! Thanks.
I can
only go by my 700 the bracket would drag if I paddled fast. I wiegh 235lbs so that may have some thing to do with it. Also the new one will be balanced a little more forward so may not have the problem.
overrated
imho, this whole rudder drag thing is highly overrated. i have a 700 which reportedly has the cockpit moved forward, although i have never measured it. does the rudder housing drag a little in the water? yes, a little bit. does this seem to matter one iota? not as far as i can tell. i am about #185. i am not a gigantic muscular person. i can easily, routinely cruise at 6.5 mph, can hold 7-7.3 or so without any great trouble for several miles at a distance racing pace and have sprinted this boat over 8mph many times and up to 8.8 mph on flatwater. in following waves i have held over 10 mph for a while and have seen numbers over 12 mph (this is all on a speedmate) on not terrible big windwaves.
this is a very, very fast sea kayak. would it be 0.1 mph faster if the stupid housing didn’t drag a tiny bit? maybe. do i care? no. should you?
andrew
Does it Matter?
Hard to tell. If one poster uses the Speedmate and based on hard numbers says no, I must say, I’d go with that and am very relieved to hear it. Other boats use the Seal Line system as well, most notably Greg Barton’s Epic 18, reviewed in this month’s Sea Kayaker. Again, a very fast sea kayak. (Anyone done a head to head?) My opinion is it’s a decent system, but needs more development. The idea of fixed pedals to provide solid bracing and Toe Pilot controls makes sense-jury’s out on the vertical blade position, although I understand the reasoning behind it-the housing mount can definitely be improved, I’m sure. Personally, I’d like to see a simpler rudder system with tiller bar set up that allows you to bring your feet in closer and keep your knees up for better rotation. I have to keep telling myself though, that the 700 is not an out and out race boat; it’s a touring boat that due to its hull design, is amazingly fast and also handles well. There are bound to be compromises-cargo volume, etc. Is the 700 a fast boat regardless of rudder or skeg? Considering I lopped about 37 minutes off a previous race time just recently, my seat of the pants impression is a resounding yes, at least for me. This was sans wing also, due to class; with it, I would have been flying. I weigh about 200, 6’1", and spend all my time with the housing in the water; this is my fast fitness boat, and the current generation with the cockpit in the middle position. After a while, housing drag gets annoying, like having a creaking crank or squealing brakes on a bicycle. The more exhausted you become, the more apparent it is-no doubt it’s largely psychological. Supposedly, Phil and Steve are working on a fix, or at least a revised bracket that may raise it slightly more off the transom; there’s more than enough blade in the water now. If they come up with something, I’m pretty confident they’ll notify those who have issue with it, or just incorporate it into current production, given my experience with the company. My boat was delivered as ordered, beautifully finished, three days after promised. A leaking hatch was replaced immediately, and I wouldn’t hesitate to buy another boat from them.
Still does it - ask Swedge
He returned his for a skegged one.
Ok
I was able to test my new 700 this weekend. my old one has the rudder. my old also has the cockpit 3 inches aft of the new one, but I have paddled a new 700 "with the rudder and forward cockpit" and it still dragged. The big gripe I have with the rudder boats is that the rudder still acts like a rudder even when you don’t want it to, I can push hard right and the boat will start making a lazy right hand turn with the rudder up!!!! So I am constantly looking over my shoulder to try to see if the rudder is perfectly strait. Another issue with the vertical rudder is if you roll it in the surf it seems like it would break pretty easily. I weigh 245 so the rudder drag is noticeable, even with the forward cockpit of the new QCC. And it makes a very audible nose even at slow speeds. The faster you go the noisier it gets! VERY annoying!!! Any way I have modified my old boat by drilling new holes in the bracket and moving the bracket so that’s its flush with the bottom screw, this almost eliminates the rudder drag problem at the cost of having a rudder that sticks up two inches higher then the stock QCC set up!!. Anyway back to the skeg boat. With the skeg down the boat does NOT turn, which is good, as I like to pick a distant point and lock on. With the skeg up, the boat responds well to sweeps. And feels loose, or as loose as a 18’ boat can get *L* it still tracks great even with out the skeg. We only had slight winds and very little waves so the test is still ongoing. The skeged 700 with the skeg deployed seems like its making less drag then the old 700 with the rudder up!! But that’s purely subjective. I really like the skeg boat as you don’t have to worry about centering your rudder!! Even when you’re not using it!! Anyway after a short 8.5 mile paddle, I went to pick my boat out of the water, man it was heavy!!! The fricken rear hatch area was full of water; the skeg box had a big leak!!! My biggest fear about skegs is that they ALL seam to leak!!! Anyway I borrowed some RTV from BillinPA, Thanks Bill, and that did the trick, No leaks on my second 9 mile trip!! Another subjective thing is the 700 LOOKS better with out that goofy rudder sticking up *L*. Anyway if you are planning on racing, get the rudder, if you are planning on touring get the skeg. I like them both. The Rudder is pretty good once I modified and raised it and the skeg is nice once you RTV the heck out of the pivot points!!! Somebody some place needs to make a smart track mount that pivots all the way over and lays flat against the deck, like the OLD SCHOOL rudders. that way the goofy bracket wont be hanging in the water all the time. Then for me the choice between a rudder and a skeg would be much harder, with maybe the rudder getting the slight edge. Overall I like my skeg boat allot. One other minor problem is the the skeg seems to keep deploying on its own. I never notice when it’s down, A good thing; until I try to turn, then I know instantly. I may have been hitting the skeg rope accidentally as I paddled or something. It didn’t do it as much on the second day, maybe because I made sure to jam the rope into the cleat better.
Reasons why I changed my skeg control
Hey Swedge - good summary! I think you’ll like the skeg much more when you get into some wind. No reason to use it otherwise, so really hard to evaluate L! Yeah, trying to turn with full skeg is definitely a wakeup call!
You hit on two of the big three reasons I modiofied my skeg control (and will find the third soon enough!):
- Cord slipping (you may not notice when you get an unintentional deployment in no wind - but trust me - in wind you’ll know fast!!! Hard to miss being forcefully turned downwind!). Other than just plain slipping, The ball will wash up and down and wiggle the cord out in beam waves/chop too. Even more annoying (but still, not a huge problem).
- Leak (it ain’t just the pivot. If you invert the boat any water in the box will drain in as the tube stops halfway - mid rear compartment. Try it while washing the boat off sometime!).
- Fine tuning (Cord makes it very hard to get precise increments of deployment - which means you have to do more corrctive stroke/lean than if you can dial it better. This is what really forced the issue for me and triggered the modification I did).
As the boat does not need skeg dployed 90% of the time -#s 1 & 3 are easy to ignore for a while, possibly indefinitely. A long offshore paddle in rear quartering wind - or a race on cross winds - will get your attention back on the cord/cleat pretty quick.
Easy to come up with other options. I got lucky and my first though worked out really well (for all 3 issues).