Ditto…
I’ve got a Das Boot (Dick Wold) and it’s the hardest boat that I’ve ever tryed to roll. I’ve always come up----it just takes a lot more effort. And don’t even bother trying a hand roll…
Bob
hmm
you should be able to tell if the student is fitting the kayak well,if it takes you getting into the kayak to prove to the student it’s possible or that ‘it’s not the kayak’ then there’s already a deficit of trust for some reason. It does help to demonstrate rolling, it can help to have the student play instructor for those who just don’t get the difference between pulling down with arms or rotating hips. “here’s what it’s like without a hip snap,here’s what it’s like with one”.
C2C?
I take you’re using? As I mentioned with my Boogie, with the seat jacked up 2", a layback roll is possible (and easier on my aging body). The Boogie also is very easy to handroll, I think for the same reason. The Venom, however, is very iffy.
Truth is a handroll has limited utility anyway, I think, in the surf zone. You come up and then what? With me, I’d likely go back over again with next breaking wave. 
At RISK last year, someone was riding out there with hand paddles.
http://stnphotography.com/risk/DSC_0386_jpg.jpg
sing
Waveski Rolling
When I took my first rolling class my son went along with his Australian High Performance Waveski to learn to roll it. The instructor was having trouble getting him so he could come close to rolling it, so the instructor got on it and took about 8 tries to flop it over.
The instructor is one of the best around and surfs wave skis. This really freaked my son out, although there are folks who can roll his ski, it takes very different technique than kayaks. (You take one foot out of the foot strap at a critical point and get extra torque by throwing your leg.) I think the guys in australia and new zealand can roll plywood sheets.
I had the same experience Sing talked about above when I moved to my Mako surf kayak. I just got so I could do fast C to C type rolls in my whitewater boat and I could not even do a sweep roll and make it work in the Mako. The instructor who first taught me how to roll has surfed these boats and talked me into going way back to basics and exagerating a lay back extended paddle roll, not sure I would have bothered if he had not explained that he thought the boats were very hard to roll. For those of you who think you can roll anything come on out and try my son’s waveski when you visit.
Dirty Tool Fighting?
My younger son, he’s 13 has started learning MA and is involved with a group that teaches Kobudo or Okinawan style fighting that emphacizes weapons; so far he is just learning patterns or katas and choreographed sparing, I’m wondering what they do when they start going at each other with Bo staffs and farm implements. I had a friend who is very good at philippine MA where they use protective equipment. How do they compete without killing each other?
Bad rolling habits
If not absolutely permanent, a burned-in bad habit can be very persistent.
My own case – in my first season rolling I practiced my way to some really “permanent” bad rolling habits, so much so that after a winter I couldn’t roll at all (and also got a major case oif tendonitis in the wrist). With the help of a very patient and observant amateur instructor I overcame it, but had to use a distinct layback to succeed.
Then my offside roll came really easily and quickly became my best side, while my so-called onside roll still had the burned-in glitches. Finally, I got a good professional diagnosis and was able to fix the onside roll. So both are finally – after years – decent and about equal.
The original problem – practicing bad habits – occurred because a number of people advised me that, if I could get up by any way, that was fine; just keep practicing and refining. So I did not seek competent help when I should have, but went doggedly about burning in bad stuff.
And that’s why I cringe when I hear someone advise a beginning roller that any way they can get up is fine; just keep working on it.
Two Component To Skills Building…
– Last Updated: Mar-04-05 1:20 PM EST –
there is a physical component and the mental component. As already touched upon, some folks feel it is easier to work with someone with a "blank slate,", meaning no prior experience and thus no prior thought about a particular skill.
From what experience I have in this arena, I find it's not so much the physical slate, short of someone being totally physically incapable, but the mental slate that matters more. If the mental component is receptive, I can work with them and am willing to do that over the long haul, meaning session after session.
However, when the mental slate isn't or can't be cleaned, then the work is harder. My tendency is to not want to work with that because I think until the "learning mind" kicks in, there is little or no chance for success.
As previously stated, a coach takes a skill and breaks it down into into components and teaches them. Even with someone with a previous physical habit, the process of teaching and practicing the basic components of a skill will over time override the previous programming. But if the learner's mind resist that, there is little or no progress because inwardly the learner is insisting that he knows better.
sing
Try The WaveSki… Love To.
actually am considering maybe getting one, given all the recent hoopla about these.
sing
Way Off Topic (long)
With Filipino MA’s, some of the guys from the islands will spar with no gear and full contact with rattan. This type of “play” is very serious stuff. Generally, it’s not “play” but a bout to see whose stuff is real, short of actually having one person killed.
The Dog Brothers in CA advocate the next level of very serious play, donning only fencing helmets and using full contact with sticks. They have a “gathering” of the pack once a year, and that’s coming up soon. (Actually just about the time of SC usually.) At the gathering, folks can choose the weapon of their choice for sparring full contact – single stick, stick and knife (short rattan), bo (6’ staff), jo (4’staff), chain, bullwhip, just about anything short of a gun. The gist is to not verbally speculate about what to do if this or that, but to show the actual skill, fluidity and abilty to adapt to a very dynamic situation. Broken bones, cuts and bruises are very much the norm for the gatherings.
The next level down is helmet, body armor and full contact with rattan sticks, or just helmet and full contact with padded sticks. Safest level is full body armor, helmet and light contact with padded sticks.
The FMA’s have probably the most congent and sophisticated approach to MA’s which view weapons work and empty hands as but the same but with changes in range continuum. They also encourage bilateralism and asychronized movement of left and right hands and footwork. This is very hard to do and takes years to master by working components over and over again.
If you go to Japanese or Okinawan arts, you will find more katas (patterned movements, or forms) but rarely actual freestyle use of the weapons. The exception would be Kendo, the sport version of “sword fighting” with shinais (bamboo swords) and full armor. But Japanese swordsmanship folks will tell you that shinai fighting has introduced techniques that are more “sport” oriented as opposed to true sword techniques with a live blade. You will not see the Bokken sparring (as seen in the Tom Cruise movie, The Last Samurai) in a modern day dojo, though that type of sparring did occur in the 1700-1800’s Japan.
The connection of Japanese weapons work, specifically sword, finds it’s way into the practice of modern, empty hand jujutsu or aikido which focus on lock, offbalance and throw techniques. But, how realistic the application is a constant source of debate in some circles. I studied aikido six years and reach the conclusion that while it may be a good “do” (study of the way), it is largely so-so jutsu (martial application). As practiced today by most folks, jujutsu/aikido (as opposed to "Brazilian Jujutuse, i.e. grappling) is very dogmatic and ritualistic. Even the freestyle ("randori) practice, allows only the “standard” attacks. A jab, for example, is not a “standard” attack in aikido. The jab really screws up alot of aikido folks. If they can handle the jab, a compound attack such as a jab converting to a followup hook will catch just everybody because the practice of compound attacks and thus the defense against is rarely taught.
As far as Okinawan Kobudo, it’s mostly practiced as kata and “do.” You won’t find students sparring with Okinawan implements. The most practical Okinawa weapons is the yawara (short palm stick) the size of a minimag lite. If practices with a good partner and get introduction to some FMA’s, it would be easy to see the continuum of the empty hand to yawara to knife techniques.
I work my son a bit with FMAs because you can actually teach it as “empty hand” format and make the connection to the weapons later on. But, these days, they’re old enough that I do the weapons work and make the connection back down to the empty hand.
sing
Back on topic (short) and off (long)
“They also encourage bilateralism and a synchronized movement of left and right…”
Seems on topic enough to me
Thanks for your insights on Aikido too. I have never trained in any MA, and that one has always been VERY interesting to me. I went and observed some practice locally - and came away much less interested. One young lady seemed quite impressive (3rd or 4th Dan, has trained Worldwide, and full of fire), but the rest seemed far more doughy and middle aged than I. A lot of standing around. Didn’t find myself wanting to spend my time like that. I should go back a few times and see if it varies much.
I know better than to judge by appearances, and any of them could probably dispatch me quite easily, but everything seemed too ritualized, with the result clearly agreed upon before the move was executed. A dance. Made me curious to see what happens without the cooperation, and with real world speed and unpredictability thrown in the mix. The slower path to ranking seems to be less consumer oriented than the million color belt TKD systems, which appeals somehow - but the mixing of all levels in the same classes makes me wonder if that’s best way - or if that’s the only way to have enough students.
I still like the underlying principles about energy, balance, harmony, etc. I still think MAs could have a place in my life. Just haven’t found a path that appeals enough to follow. I’m a slow starter. Downright lazy compared to you.
Training alone, as I do with kayaking, is not a valid option in MA world beyond following along with a Tai Chi tape! GP could be an interesting weapon though…
Parallels Again…
– Last Updated: Mar-04-05 4:45 PM EST –
FMA "asynchronized" movement means the two individuals hands can be doing very different things. For example, it's easy to make circular motions with the both hands at the same time but it's harder to tap your head and make circular motions with the other hand on the tummy. The concept of "weapon hand" and "live hand" is all about asynchronized movement.
One of the strength of aikido is that they do encourage bilateral movement. You work the technique one side, then you do an immediate mirror image on the other side. Parallel: onside and offside roll.
Aikido can be very fun. I like throwing and getting thrown. But you must be brutally honest about what is happening with "cooperative" learning. Most folks are not giving real resistance of very little resistance. The strict use of standardized attacks allows folks to more readily discern the patterns. Real life always doesn't follow neat little patterns. There are "unorthodox" fighters, or fighters whose "orthodoxy" is not known to the aikidoka because they don't train against it. Parallel: Think pool practice roll vs. combat roll practice in surf or white water.
Finally, some of the ranked aikido folks, having never been really tested outside the dojo, in terms of real conflict, or even free sparring with non aikido practitioners begin to believe their own press, to their own detriment and that of their students (some on verge of fans/adorers). Some very strange teacher/student relationships develop in that kind of setting. (In a "freestyle" situation, it's not totally unusual to have a "student" knock a "teacher" flat on his a$$. It's the nature of the beast and it's actually good for the instructor to help him/her keep some humility.
sing
Thanks for the great overview Sing
My son got into this from an interest in swords but I think its helping him learn to concentrate in depth and increase coordination and balance. I hope its something he can stick with. It’s not something I know much about at all.
Practicing at Santa Cruz…
You mentioned once Dave Johnson told you about a safe place to warm up? The website asks people not to practice in Santa Cruz, my son’s having second thoughts since he hasn’t surfed more than a couple of times since summer.
I prefer a sweep…
Sing,
I agree that a hand roll would be of questionable value—I just mentioned it to point out how hard it is to bring the surf boat back up.
BTW, the link didn’t work for me?!
Bob
Absolutely agree…
… well put. In my case, I got the skill – but the wrong one – burned pretty firmly into my muscles and mind. It took evasive tactics – moving to a layback – to overcome it. Then with more mental and physical work, I was able to go back and undo the originally burned in problem. But it took a while for that, and the problem still lurks a bit in my mind and muscles.
My main point is to be careful what you practice, especially if you are dogged (like me). The same thing that helps you get solid – burning in skills – can also hurt you.