Sounds like
you can edge over well enough to figure out what’s going to work for you.
Usually a moderate edge is fine. In the lumpy stuff it’s best to test it for yourself and what you want to accomplish.
I’ll probably end up with two kayaks. One day boat and one rough water surf boat. Both will be no more than 22’’ wide.
It’s not the kayak.
I get the impression you’re simply describing the maximum edging point, the balance point that you seek to become familiar with on any kayak. The point where a slight shift one way would put you off balance going towards the water, and a slight shift the other would have you going towards upright again. Getting to this balance point feels different in different kayaks, but every kayak reaches that delicate balance point. So the sea kayak is behaving the way a sea kayak is meant to behave.
Now the fun part. That is not your maximum edging point. And you are not required to “throw a brace” or be prepared to seriously brace beyond that point. To edge further, you are simply required to learn proper turning strokes. One of the first most people learn, which is what you must use when not in motion, is the sweep stroke. You can easily edge beyond this balance point after you begin the sweep stroke. When you get good at it, you will have figured out coming up just above the balance point at the end of the sweep (not completely upright), so that you remain on edge and turning while resetting for your next sweep if necessary. Then you edge beyond the balance point as you sweep again. You only sit up when you’re done turning. So you are not bracing. You are using whatever added stability you create due to the way you perform the sweep. A more verticle blade creates less added stablility, more bite on the water, but less ability to edge further. Flattening the blade out will give more stability, ability to edge further, but less bite on the water. So you have to feel out what’s best with your kayak with practice.
The more forward momentum you have, the less effective a sweep stroke becomes. But everything else becomes more effective. The stern rudder I believe is the easiest to learn from here. Again, there’s a balance to be found with the blade angle, but it’s quite easy to edge beyond that paddleless balance point while support is there due to the way you’re working the blade.
Every turning stroke you practice, you will be working out this same balance.
From everything you’ve written, it sounds like you’re wondering if your kayaks have unacceptable balance points. Or, maybe better put, if the degree of lean attainable while remaining in balance without the use of a paddle is considered a flaw on these. It’s not the kayak. Every kayak has differing levels of resistance reaching that balance point, and design differences can change that balance point a wee little bit. But what relatively small volume of air can we be expecting to support the off-balance weight of our body and head? Once the coaming starts submerging, generally speaking, you are reaching that balance point. Just think of it in its simplest form. The majority of weight is either on one side or the other. How much can honestly be done to modify that within the design parameters of a sea kayak? You’re not going to find a kayak that lets you throw that balance off significantly further.
Blaming equipment never blames you. Blaming equipment never blames an instructor (if applicable). While obviously being very popular, it can also be very counterproductive. I definitely agree with learning the roll, because finding and controling the balance point, for me, means errors on both sides of the balance point. A brace will almost always simply be part of a stroke (vs. the learned slapping straight down on the water) once you begin to flow with this stuff.
Edging and the paddle
I was trying to think of when I would be leaning without the paddle in the water. Every time I lean my boat, the paddle is in the water because they work together. If you’re just trying to test the hull for where the 2ndary ends, sometimes paddlers hold the paddle but ready for a quick brace. I think analyzing secondary is something that beginners seem to be enamored with more than seasoned paddlers. No kayak has no secondary and usually a paddler can feel it right off and either likes the boat or not for a variety of reasons. Also, low volume boats will bring the water line right to the coaming a lot easier than high volume boats.
Thanks, that too
– Last Updated: Oct-13-09 10:21 AM EST –
Maybe it's something that doesn't translate intuitively from a canoe background, but having the paddle in a brace-ready position gets automatic in a kayak as you move into conditions, is part of the turns. If you are in bigger waves or similar, there really isn't any other way you can count on having it there fast enough for a recovery.
I think the best advice
I’ve read about the paddle being in a brace-ready position was in a Sea Kayaker magazine article some years ago. The person writing the article was paddling (surf skis) through the most challenging conditions he had been in with one of the elite racers, I believe Arthur Chalupski? He said when he began holding up, dangling his paddle in brace positions, Arthur firmly and directly yelled for him to paddle harder if he felt like he needed to brace. He simply did not want to allow that. The author said it helped him tremendously to get rid of that reflex that took over whenever he felt unsure of himself.
A lightbulb clicked on for me. I figured if I find myself out in open water in challenging conditions, I want to work my way to safety as quickly as possible. It’s hard enough making progress at times without stopping everything and getting hung up in a brace position.
I went out and began practicing, as best I could, what it would be like getting thrown off balance at different points during the forward stroke. I learned to brace while at full speed. It all basically resulted in much better command over the leading edge of my blade, and a more conscious effort at keeping my shoulders in a safer position no matter when I’m thrown off balance. (less out-of-control flailing around with the arms and paddle when caught offguard)
One of the more important items to note, which I’m sure is much more pronounced in a surf ski in regards to Chalupski and the writer of the article, but also very useful in a sea kayak, is that maintaining momentum maintains stability. When you stop your forward stroke to get ready to brace, your kayak becomes less stable. You also momentarily give up some directional control in waves. That in addition to no longer making your way out of the situation. With practice, I certainly learned that a quick transition from a forward stroke or turning stroke into a firm bracing position is always possible. I also learned that by using powerful forward strokes, I’m much less likely to ever need extra support.
So I’ve learned that I didn’t have to accept a brace-ready position as a must. I only found advantages to breaking away from that. My one exception is when I’m about to be broadsided by a breaking wave that is taking me sidesurfing along with it , regardless of what I do.
Yup, speed makes up for a lot
– Last Updated: Oct-13-09 11:09 AM EST –
And in stuff in which I am only somewhat uncomfortable I generally put on speed to make up for stability concerns. In fact when I demo'd my first sea kayak, the Squall, I set a record for pace that I probably haven't equaled since. :-)
But the OPer seems to be talking mostly about turning, or taking the boat over intentionally to its edge when he is going slower, as well as not being able to tell where the edge really is. This is stuff that usually needs to be resolved before moving on to what you are talking about.
What does it mean?
“I think analyzing secondary is something that beginners seem to be enamored with more than seasoned paddlers.”
And as is often demonstrated here, there is no uniform understanding of what the term “secondary stability” means amongst paddlers so rational discussion is difficult at best. As an interesting exercise, read the reviews in Sea Kayaker Magazine and compare the stability curves with the comments of the reviewers. For example, the reviewers of the P&H Bahiya thought it had good secondary stability. Not that I am suggesting the reviews have any great intrinsic value or otherwise.
Maybe this example will help.
At 170lbs and 5ft 10" tall Im in either a Mystic or Merlin LT kayak. One has 21.5" beam and the other 23" wide beam .Both are very similar in other areas, depth, rocker length weight shallow veed. Now if someone else trys these twqo kayaks and they are 125lbs 5ft 4 for example when that person trys to edge or lean Im willing to bet they will feel a strong resistance build until theres no more (hanging point) before it capsizes. Where with my size I think I just might be overwhelming that stability to where I dont feel any resistance,it just keeps rotating over very easily. Im not saying I cant tune in to that hang point ,I can in calm water but in more adverse conditions I dont think I will sense it as much so I can get a brace going.If this is true due to my size then Im just wondering what dimensions can I find that will accomdate my size giving me a clear secondary point of hang. I dont want the larger sea kayaks ,trying to stay down in the 14ft length.Im not worrying about getting water in since I would have a skirt .Just using that as a setpoint example that I passed the cockpit edge and still no resistance with my brace standing by.
More boats more seat time
Obviously (from earlier posts) I am smaller so have a different fit in these boats. But there are a couple of things that keep jumping out which suggest that you need to spend more time in the boat you have to be able to make a good choice. Not that one isn’t out there, just that moving to other boats right now is not likely to produce better results than your first try.
First, it appears that you are worrying about being in conditions but haven’t yet done so. You may be anticipating problems where none exist. The nature of a kayak is for that hang point to harden up in waves over what it would be on the flat. As long as you remember to keep loose hips,it is often a more natural motion, over more quickly and more reliable than what you can get by approximating things on flat water.
Second, you may be trying to feel it as too similar to what it feels like in a canoe. Given that canoe sizing tends to run large enough that a 5’4" 135 pound woman has pretty limited choices of optimally sized canoes compared to options in kayaks these days, you are sitting on the smaller end of volume/weight whatever for the single blade solo canoes that are out there. I’d guess that you could just about have a picnic on edge in most of the likely solo canoes. Even a very solid hang point in a kayak is going to be a little more narrow in its presence than the usual edge sit in a canoe.
The one idea that popped into my head yesterday was for you to pick up the correctly sized Dagger Alchemy. The boat is new but in plastic so can be gotten at a non-fiberglass price, and it may be the ideal platform for someone in your situation. It has a very comfy feel, isn’t super skinny in the middle, still on the short side, but will support learning skills and balance very well. And this would never be a hard boat to turn around used.
I have no answer
to your question. I believe you are correct that for any given boat a person with a higher center of mass will find the boat tippier than a person with a lower center of mass. That said, and others would likely disagree for reasons that are valid, I do not think the fact a boat is tippier than an other says anything about how it would perform in difficult conditions. I say this because I like and have developed great confidence and trust in boats which by any objective or subjective measure are very tippy and prefer them to more stable boats. Others for reasons valid for them feel otherwise on the subject. Which is why we have a choice in boats.
I simply do not understand your question as framed. To me the boat is not supposed to be stable as in keeping you upright or resist heeling so you have time to brace or whatever. To me good boats for rough water make it easy for you to keep your nose over your navel and that means they will move through a large range of heel effortlessly. However, that is just my personal prejudice, it requires one to be an “active” paddler, and it can be mentally and emotionally tiring over a prolonged period of time. Still, the dancing is wonderful.
myself at 175 lbs 6’0" and size xl hat
I’m thinking your size lends itself quite nicely to fitting into and performing well in a wide variety of kayaks.
“At 170lbs and 5ft 10” tall Im in either a Mystic or Merlin LT kayak. One has 21.5" beam and the other 23" wide beam .Both are very similar in other areas, depth, rocker length weight shallow veed. Now if someone else trys these twqo kayaks and they are 125lbs 5ft 4 for example when that person trys to edge or lean Im willing to bet they will feel a strong resistance build until theres no more (hanging point) before it capsizes. Where with my size I think I just might be overwhelming that stability to where I dont feel any resistance,it just keeps rotating over very easily."
No. The point you’re trying to make is wrong. It is not a case of you simply overwhelming the stability due to your size being unfit for these hulls. Of course if your hips are wider, your thighs and butt bigger, your shoulders and chest narrower, and your torso shorter, it will feel more stable. You’re saying the boat dimensions are no good because of your size. Your size is just fine.
“Im not saying I cant tune in to that hang point ,I can in calm water but in more adverse conditions I dont think I will sense it as much so I can get a brace going.”
Same as above. It’s not that the kayak is unfit for your size, or that your size doesn’t lend itself to kayaking very well. Getting some bracing going in adverse conditions is a set of skills, not different kayak dimensions.
“If this is true due to my size”
No, it isn’t.
“then Im just wondering what dimensions can I find that will accomdate my size giving me a clear secondary point of hang.”
Even though it isn’t true, has nothing to do with the other kayaks’ inabilities to accomodate your size, what you are still seeking out is a kayak with a stronger hang point. My guess is that the further up on your torso, and the wider out from your torso at the highest point, that the gunwale is, the more you can get the quality you seem to be looking for. There’s a lot more going on than that though. You probably don’t want a V that plops you right down to a point beyond the balance point. You want something that causes it to slowly build without letting you get that far. I don’t know anyone who seeks higher and wider decks out for improved control in conditions, but you could seek it out for extra strong heeling resistance. What I hope you’re looking for is a different hull shape, not different dimensions.
“I dont want the larger sea kayaks ,trying to stay down in the 14ft length.Im not worrying about getting water in since I would have a skirt .Just using that as a setpoint example that I passed the cockpit edge and still no resistance with my brace standing by.”
There was plenty of resistance for a performance oriented paddler. You’re just looking for more. If you take this line of reasoning very far, you’ll end up with a 14 footer that is every bit as large as a properly fitted 16-17 foot sea kayak, only shorter. But that might be exactly the right thing for you. It’s whatever gets you on the water.
My Dagger Halifax (just a stability example), among those that I own, gives me the most solid hangpoint. 23 1/2" wide, deep cockpit, lots of volume up higher on my torso and extended out to the sides. Really gives a strong hang point. The ups and downs of paddling with excess volume, higher decks, wider profiles, I’ll leave up to you. Everyone decides upon their own compromises. It’s just an example of a kayak with a very strong hangpoint, and an idea of some of what they did to achieve that.