It’s a tool
Like any tool it has limitations. Yes, it may be a crutch, but if it saves your tale I would guess it is a good crutch. I wonder if one should just lay around if you one broke their leg and not use a crutch…just a thought hmmm. It is not an excuse to not learn better self rescue methods. Nor an excuse to paddle alone or with some else not able to do an assisted rescue. You have to start somewhere. Take the time to learn how to do self resues and assisted rescues. One of the best things to remember is Murphy’s Law… have more than one method to get back in. There are many and some have been mentioned here.
Not talking about adaptive paddling here
That’s a separate issue, among a group that understands they have some limitations and seeks to adapt and overcome them.
I’m talking about the assumption folks make that they are “fine” doing whatever they want even if they are not capable of the most basic elements of the activity. They are both unaware of their limitations AND not trying to overcome them. Adds up to having mental and physical handicaps, but paddling as if all’s well.
The number of people who can’t self rescue, and who even have trouble with assisted rescues - should be a huge red flag. Why is there so much effort spent to support and even encourage this weakness rather than helping get people to be better/safer paddlers?
Asking for help is fine. It’s not about that either. We’ll all take an assist now and then when it saves a bit of time/energy. That’s different from needing it.
It’s not my “vision of self-reliance”, it’s common sense. Sticking to group paddles should NOT be a reason to avoid the obvious need for basic self rescue ability* - yet this support net is often given as one of the main reasons people paddle together. A recent local incident made the folly of this very clear - though those involved still failed to get the message.
Most people won’t have these basic skills right off, and no one expects them too, but is it unreasonable to expect them to develop them as part of their paddling (and as early part of their learning curve)? If they can’t or won’t - why do people feel the need to encourage this by being enablers and/or promoting gizmos?
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- To me the basic skill of getting into a kayak (from land or water), and attitudes about them, serve as a test of whether someone should be out there or not. Inability to do these things should be a warning sign. Ignoring it is irresponsible.
Yes, paddling is a good way to “get more fit” - but key word there is “more”, which implies some degree of fitness already. If someone’s not fit enough to work on basic self rescue skills (get in and out of their kayak on and off/water), then I would suggest there are safer activities they can pursue until fit enough to be on the water (which doesn’t really take all that much in the way of fitness for what most folks want to do).
For those who are lazy and overweight - LIKE ME - I’d suggest taking time to learn to roll. Faster, easier, much less effort required. If you do come out of the kayak a re-entry and roll is then also an option - and getting in without climbing on (from side or below) is doable with very little strength.
Short of rolling, A paddle float re-entry and roll removes the need to be balanced up on deck. A lot like the leg hook P-float techniques, but even lazier. May need to pump a bit more…
Rec boaters? - Skip all that and just work on your swimming!
- To me the basic skill of getting into a kayak (from land or water), and attitudes about them, serve as a test of whether someone should be out there or not. Inability to do these things should be a warning sign. Ignoring it is irresponsible.
Dealing with first timers
Yeah, all understandable - for first timers, intro tours, etc. No issue there.
Issue is with those who continue to paddle and yet still can’t get into their own kayaks (from land or water) and who expect others or extra gear to take up their slack.
Sure, there will always be people like this on the water - but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with or be supportive of their choice to remain so.
If someone can’t get in/on their kayak, or can only barely can manage it with great effort and assistance, but feels they’re OK to paddle anyway - we are supposed to be supportive of that view? At first? Maybe. Indefinitely? Not!
Any rescue that works
is a good rescue. I encourage people to try all different kinds of rescues in all different kinds of conditions. Paddlers no matter what their skill level should develop practice and utilize as many different self and assisted rescues as possible. Build up your tool box. While some rescues may be more efficient than others the one that can get that paddler out of danger, back in the boat and safe is the BEST one that day.
What’s so friggin’ “advanced”…
– Last Updated: Mar-09-07 5:53 PM EST –
... or "elite" about being able to get yourself into your kayak?
Seriously.
Call it what you will, but the issue is nothing more than being ABLE TO GET INTO YOUR KAYAK from land or water.
This is a BASIC/BEGINNER level skill. That anyone would even question the need for this, and learning it right off, is pretty disturbing.
Thanks for the off-hand compliment (misdirected to as I'm far from advanced), but mis-characterizing this discussion as some sort of high level paddler vs. everyone else deal - and that these are somehow not basic paddling skills - is a disservice to your fellow paddlers.
Rather than trying to sound like Joe Everypaddler for popularity points, consider the potential value of saving lives vs. saving face.
Do agree on the "use whatever works" point - as long as that means selecting from tried and practiced options - not just going with lowest common denominator and leaving it at that.
Greyak,
– Last Updated: Mar-09-07 6:38 PM EST –
no one has said that someone who uses a sling will -never- go beyond that rescue method. What is this entry from land stuff? I thought we were talking about stirrups and re-entry in the water? I don't think the two are equated.
My last post meant that like everything else, skills are developed over time. Every one of your posts comes off as if people who use a stirrup are not willing to ever learn anything more and they shouldn't ever be on the water and are surely going to perish any day now. Perhaps we should create a national registry for stirrup abusers and issue out neon pink license plates. ;)
There are over something like 65,000 members on this site. Look at how many actually -post- on it. This place caters to all kinds of skill levels. Not everyone is able to spend every day or even every week in their boat in warm water paddling and perfecting techniques. A lot of folks don't own boats. I realize your passionate about this issue, but sometimes your aggresive posts are a turn off. Let folks -grow- with the sport. :)
Pardon my sarcasm.
– Last Updated: Mar-09-07 6:36 PM EST –
But there is a large subset of the paddling world who will NEVER learn to roll. Factolife.
Bnystrom's and Greyak's posts certainly struck me as sounding like such boaters with a substandard skill set should not be on the water. Pardon me if I mis-read them.
Jim
Growth
"What is this entry from land stuff? I thought we were talking about stirrups and re-entry in the water? I don’t think the two are equated."
Getting in is getting in. Stirrup or “Kayak Kickstand” - similar issues - same market. I’m also speak to general skills more than the stirrup itself. Brain handled the specifics well enough.
“This place caters to all kinds of skill levels.”
I don’t.
“sometimes your aggressive posts are a turn off.”
I’d be even more concerned if they were a turn on!
What you see as aggression - I see as simply pointing out the obvious. Does telling folks I think they should be able to get in their kayaks really need a lot of sugar coating? Remember, I’m not selling anything here. Not stirrups, not lessons, not guiding services.
“Let folks -grow- with the sport.”
I’m trying to encourage exactly that - but you mollycoddlers are making it very hard!
Question is what’s the standard
No, everyone won’t learn to roll - their loss.
What’s the bottom level? Anything goes?
You did misread, but maybe only by degree. I really don’t understand why people would think they’re fine going out on the water when they are unable to get back into their boat (without some major ordeal) if it flips. Floors me actually. If I come off harsh it’s because I feel people need a wakeup call here, not more group hugs.
Not about levels - it’s about the ground floor (or water level in this case).
Coastal :
I hope you have not given up on P-Net.
As you may have noticed, there are some very strong opinions to be found here. Sorry to see your post get highjacked.
If you have not discovered them already, I highly recommend Wayne Horodowich’s training vids. The one on Rescue and Recovery is very good. Find them at useakayak.org
Jim
not exactly
– Last Updated: Mar-09-07 9:17 PM EST –
Not "shouldn't be on the water" -- more "should choose their water more carefully".
My take is that if you lack self-rescue skills, you should choose paddling conditions where self-rescue isn't critical. Thousands of paddlers have no problem doing that. If you're going where rapid, reliable self-rescue is important, you should develop the appropriate skills.
Here's a perfect example(from another current thread):
http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/2007-03-08/news/ten-seconds-to-eternity/
You’re not wrong … but
people go in the water and can’t swim. People get on john-boats in cold weather/water and have 3 beers and attempt to piss over the side and fall in.
It still comes down to the same thing you or I consider every time we go out - do we have a reasonable (to us) margin of safety around us? From our personal skills to equipment, to solo vs. partners, etc, etc. it all adds up to a go/no go decision.
I frequently kayak on a lake near my home. It is typically perfectly mirror-like with many yaks and canoes enjoying the scenery and fishing. I often see overweight and probably newbies squeezing themselves into a rental yak and trying the sport. I say - great, enjoy it. They must wear of pfd to rent. If they fall in, fine - they’ll either figure it out or get some help. I’d guess 99% have a great time. No problem - good for them.
I understand your concern but you know, we’re all adults. They need to make good decisions. I’ve made some decisions in the water that I cringe at today - more informed. So the important point is information - rentals, vendors, etc. MUST make sure that people know what the hazards are and what is considered minimal expectations. But I know people who would fall off and be completely unable to get back in their yak. They would laugh, they would splash, but they would get back alive one way or the other. Fine - good on 'em.
Actually, you shouldn’t need a step.
Just adjust the size of your loop by tying a slip knot so that it is the right length for the victim to step into.
There also aren’t any entrapment issues with it. During a class on guiding with Wayne Horodowich, I mentioned that it was difficult to get my foot out of the loop.
Wayne had me just bend my leg up at the knee and the stirrup just falls away.
If somebody is tired, it is possible they won’t have the upper body strength to pull themselves up onto the back deck.
In addition, most women don’t have the upper body strength that a man does, but do have lots of strength in their legs.
Why not give them something to help?
My first choice in assisted rescues is for he victim to just lay on their backs in the water with their feet pointing towards the bow. Then just take your inside leg and put it up and into the cockpit and hook it under a thigh brace. You can then roll up onto the kayak so that you are on your stomach with your feet in the cockpit. Corkscrew into your seat and it’s done—but I still carry a stirrup for those who can’t seem to understand those instruction—just put it around the combing of their boat and there are no issues with breaking a paddle.
Just my 2 cents.
Hmm - parallel to saddle stirrups
The description of how to set the loop is interesting - not unlike why people riding horses are often required to have boots with heels and there are those leather pieces in front of the stirrup in a western saddle. It prevents the foot from being able to push thru the stirrup so that the whole foot could be caught at the ankle and leave the rider vulnerable to being dragged in the case of a fall.
Real life situation where a stirrup
was the best way to get a paddler back in his boat.
A paddler I know was tryring to learn to roll by using a paddlefloat on his paddle. He over extended his arm and tried pulling down on it. As a result, he dislocated his shoulder but still managed to wet exit. In order to get him back to land and medical treatment, it was necessary to get him back in his boat–and he only had the use of one hand.
A stirrup was quickly deployed, he climbed into his boat, and a rafted tow was set up since he couldn’t use the paddle to brace himself.
When the CG arrived, they realized the fastest way to help was if he was towed to the beach and we did that where an ambulance and EMT’s were waiting.
Could it have been done some other way? Sure, but this was quick and not much more painful than what he was already feeling from the dislocation.
One surgery and 7 months later, he is back on the water and starting to learn to roll again.
thanks
jsaults,
thanks for the shout out i am most definately not turned off to the site its enjoyable to watch the bickering and in some cases lack of foresight
i am a guide on van. island and am competent with the rescues and recoveries. I just carry the stirrup for the heck of it. It’s there for the off chance that the circumstance requires it. All i really wanted to know was what knot people have used ahaha i improvised a water knot that seems to work fine.
happy paddling.
Me thinks it’s the outside leg NM
Can you attach stirrup to the kickstand?
Sold as a pair - “The Kayak Kick-starter”! Fatasstic!
If there were others there to helpl…
…which your description seems to indicate, a scoop rescue would have worked, too.
Quick Release Rig Photos
I had a number of emails requesting info on how to make a quick release rescue stirrup, so I posted an overview and photos to the P&H blog.
http://www.phpaddlers.com/blogroll/mark-pecot/rethinking-rescue-stirrups/
Feedback is welcome. Thanks!
–Mark