I don’t see the difference between a person who makes a stupid decision and doesn’t prepare and one who has poor health and decides they want to try anyway. Do we really want to pit groups of people against each other? We should be encouraging people to lead active lifestyles because our country is in crisis.
Because I’ve heard people say that certain (handicapped for example) people have “no business doing x, y,z” and I’m not sure it’s for them to say.
We rescue the people that sit on their butts all day and then have a related medical event, we rescue addicts, we rescue criminals, but now we are doing to demand money from people that made a poor decision doing sports or outdoor activities?
I don’t see it.
I have had to take transport flights that were very stupid decisions because of weather or even the hungover pilot.
Sometimes in the Caribbean, little
old people who had been told they could cruise with their friends, that there was a “hospital” on the ship, would get put off alone on the dock someplace like Haiti with a touch of chest pain and have to cough up ten grand cash for our air ambulance to get them back to the USA.
I realize that is a different situation because they were outside the United States but it was hard to watch the ones that didn’t have the money. Especially the moped head injuries that needed a neurosurgeon.
A lot of countries will get their people to safety.
The same people that want “Medicare for All” want “stupid” people to pay for emergency rescues.
How about we cover critical emergency care and services and reach a reasonable compromise?
I think I generally agree with you both. I read somewhere recently that NH rescues about 200 hikers per year at a cost of around $300k total, and sends a bill to 10-15 of them, most of which go uncollected. I’ve got to find the link again. A decade or so ago, there was a bit of a controversy when NH tried to collect $25k from a 17 year old who went off trail and got lost for a couple days. There was a backlash and the state backed off. NH also tried criminally charging a pair of hikers who went off trail and tried to climb a rock face without climbing equipment. They were misdemeanor charges for putting rescuers at risk, but they were dropped. So it really is just an incentive.
Being New Hampshire, we have some in the legislature who want to auction off all public lands on principle. Another side of the debate says make all public lands open for use, but you’re on your own. The government isn’t responsible for marking and maintaining trails or access points and doesn’t provide any policing or emergency services. Lawless lands effectively. That sounds like an invitation to squatters and criminals to me, and where’s the public good?
A more popular view is that the White Mountains are a national forest, so if the Forest Service wants it open for recreation, the Forest Service should pay for all emergency services on their land. Of course, the Forest Service says look how much money you make on tourism because of the recreation we provide, if you want all those tourists spending money in your state, you should pay for the emergency services they require. And you can’t bill the feds anyway.
So we’re going to keep rescuing people, and very few of them are going to pay for it, so it’s just a question of what’s the fairest way to spread the costs. You can’t collect a user fee or check for a Hike Safe card at every entry point or trailhead because you can’t afford to staff them all.
I also agree with encouraging the recreational use of public lands and I think everybody can benefit from outdoor recreation. That includes the disabled. Within reason. I wouldn’t build a road through wild forest just so disabled people can access a remote lake that you otherwise have to paddle & portage to.
That actually sounds confusing. Perhaps a parking fee at the trail head with all proceeds sent to the local SAR group would be more understandable. I remember seeing a fee charged to BWCA outfitting that helped fund the local hospital. Rural Hospitals who have back country users show up at the ER tend to have a lot of problems collecting for payments.
Both yes IMO. Digital media has made evreything available at once so speed of news traveling has increased.
But there are two factors impacting the judgement level of people going out as well. Fewer younger people did stuff alone, or in a group of maybe a couple or three, in the outdoors because from kindergarden on they were raised with a mentality of stranger danger. For good and understandable reasons. But those younger years of bopping around in woods without worrying about being a a pack were a normal and impactful part of growing up for boomers.
The other issue was for a time the results of the CoVid shutdowns. The one thing people could still do was go outside. So they did. With inadequate footwear, clothing, ability to navigate trails or plan.
Truth.
I don’t know how to balance a parent’s basic desire to keep their kids safe with the responsibility to let them acquire the variety of learning experiences that makes for smart (both street-smart and book-smart) and capable adults.
Times and attitudes have certainly changed. I credit my father for properly teaching me how to handle myself in the woods by myself when I grew up in the 1960’s. He would take me deer hunting and guided me to place me at favored watch spots deep in the forest far from the road. We followed a “trail” of his own making, not so much of a trail as a route by memory tree to tree, rock to rock, ridge to ridge, creek to creek. He told me to “sit or stand here”, watch and listen in all directions, as he left me to make his wide area sweeps over a couple of hours, hoping to chase a deer in my direction.
Later, when he thought I had memorized the route myself, he would send me off, saying: “I’ll give you 20 minutes to get to the rock by the bend in the creek”, or whatever the remembered destination was. "If you get mixed up (he never used the word “lost”), just sit down, eat your sandwich, look at the map, and figure out how you got to where you are and how to get out. Usually following the compass in a certain direction would get you to a commonly recognized location or terrain feature. “Just wait there”.
I don’t know that kids are taught that or experience woods learning like that anymore. I have used that same methodology on myself as I set off on my own wilderness exploration adventures in the many years since. I taught my own son and daughter how to do it too. My daughter became a wilderness guide and my son became an AF fighter pilot.
Much worse than just unprepared: Stupid, foolhardy.
A big snowstorm was forecast for much of the eastern half of CO. That guy—I assume it is a guy—went for a mountain hike on a day when the forecast was already known.
He acted like someone from, well, somewhere else, but the article didn’t state info about that. Wearing a cotton hoody? Not normal hiking wear.
A dam on the Arkansas River above Salida, CO, is being removed. Too many deaths, rescues, etc. had occurred over decades. I thought, “What took them so long?” and then I read that there was a boat chute with a big sign that directed river boaters to USE THE BOAT CHUTE, not go over the dam.
Late November 2003, Western Adirondacks, the first use of SPOT transmitter used for rescue TWICE by the same man. Ohio resident Carl Skalak went canoeing on a shallow river in the Five Ponds Wilderness area of the Adirondacks in NY. He set up campsite where the paddleable beaver marsh ended at the head of where the river enters gentle rapids. Along comes a snowstorm, which by the way was well predicted in advance. I remember that weekend with the heavy snow, and as I live not far away. A helicopter from nearby Army Fort Drum was dispatched to successfully rescue Carl.
But his gear and canoe were left behind at the campsite. I have paddled that river and I know this exact area well. There is a hunter’s trail following the river in the woods that he could have walked out on dry ground to his parked vehicle less than a couple of miles away.
Two weeks later he paddled another canoe on the same route to retrieve his first canoe and gear. As luck would have it, another heavy snow storm struck and freezing temperatures skimmed over the quiet water with slushy ice. Well, it worked the first time, so why not again? He activated the SOS button on his SPOT and got rescued again. The distress signal prompted a search involving 13 forest rangers, who were initially unable to reach Skalak at the original campsite due to heavy lake-effect snows in progress.
Turns out he had food and shelter with him and could have waited out the storm ending a day or two later. That incident led to his arrest. He was charged with two counts of third- degree falsely reporting an incident. He was arraigned and posted $10,000 bail. The eventual legal outcome result was not disclosed.
I had previously read about Mr. Roma. By all descriptions he was, more than most anyone, someone who respected the mountains and would have been prepared. Yet something went wrong and we’ll likely never know.
Hypothermia makes you lose judgement. Once judgement is gone lots of things can happen.
There was a story on one of the streaming channels last night where a hiker who knew the trails he was on extremely well really only made one mistake. He started a five hour hike in not cold weather on a well marked trail an hour and a half later than he should have. Rather than turn back early he pushed on to get to the end of it - destinitis is a powerful lure - and three days later they got him out just in time after a cascading set of events with one saving piece of good luck.
[quote=“Celia, post:216, topic:114101”]
Hypothermia makes you lose judgement.[/quote]
Yes of course. But, what cascade of events occurred that caused hypothermia? And we likely will not know. I am reminded of this tragic death of another highly experienced hiker some years ago. https://www.catskillmountaineer.com/reviews-winterhikingKM.html
No. The cascade of potentially fatal events came on due to/after hypothermia.
The decision to keep going left the guy at the top of the path - up some level of mountain - overnight because he could not see to safely come down. He did not have clothing adequate to those temperatures. The next morning he woke up likely already in early hypothermia and instead of staying put and safer decided to follow a creek down that took him down a fairly unsafe incline to get there. (no explanation of why he did nopt just take the same path down.) Tripped, glasses broke so he could not see much of anything, stepped into and got his hands in cold water while losing his water bottle… by the time he spent the second overnight the only thing that saved him was a casual comment to a fellow worker that he had planned to hike that trail. When he did not show up at work they had some idea of where to send the flights to try and spot him.
I was referring to Christopher Roma. And, I believe that if you put yourself in a situation that allows you to become hypothermic, there was a prerequisite mistake made, however small, or some reasonably unanticipated factor that put you there.
Agreed. That moment seems unclear in the case of Roma. May be having underestimated the effect of the conditions. Something like that could slide by unnoticed.
So much is not known. He was a guide and had a guiding company in the Whites. He did manage to call for help via phone and said he was in trouble. He knew that. What the initial trouble is will be best shown in an autopsy.
Skiing in Switzerland. The rule is: On piste (trail) the ski area will rescue you (sled and a long ride). Off piste (trail, and most skiing IS off piste) You pay for your rescue, However,
Walk into any Swiss post office in the winter and pay just a few dollars for rescue insurance. Nearly all skiers pay their couple of francs/ euros, and the helicopter that dusts you off the mountain is paid for.
Something similar needs to be here. Easy, cheap, accessible, and all hikers, paddlers, back country people, pay their 10 or 20 bucks for the season.
A few years back, a very long paddle trip, I bought a helicopter policy here in the US. Was not cheap, but the alternative of 100k helicopter rescue bill??
I worry about this a little when we are at the remote desert house because of all the rattlesnakes and the possible need for antidote. I guess our medical insurance would cover it but I know the anti venom is about an hour away. My husband has almost stepped on a rattlesnake twice already just on weekends.
with their friends, that there was a “hospital” on the ship, would get put off alone on the dock someplace like Haiti with a touch of chest pain and have to cough up ten grand cash for our air ambulance to get them back to the USA.