True that! When I did the AMC training, the weather forecasting was nowhere near as accurate and far out. Today’s forecasting is so much more reliable and advanced. We are highly unlikely to get hit with the “missed” weather forecasts like the “Blizzard of 78” or the “Perfect Storm” of 1990, or the more minor disturbances beneath those.
In the AMC training, we were told to expect the “unexpected” in the mountains. Why when I used to do the solo hikes in May, I would have snow shoes with me. When I hiked in October, I would have winter clothes and gear. I almost always ended week long hikes, with at least two days of provisions (in terms of rice/pasta, nuts, PB, etc.) left over.
Re “being slammed online”
Clearly, the climber made mistakes, but the bigger jerks are the cowards who can be their natural selves only while hiding behind the anonymity of social media. Assholiness knows no bounds.
My inclination is to give poop emojis to all except for the Sherpa and his clients who gave up their shot at summiting Everest (and all the expenditures that were associated) to get that “victim” off the mountain at their own peril.
There’s two very different things being discussed in this thread:
Accidents at home or on the road should be paid for at least by insurance if you’re covered. That’s what insurance is for, and accidents and incidents do happen in civilization where injuries occur.
Climbing of any kind is an optional recreational activity, whether you’re climbing a mountain in New Hampshire or Mount Everest. I’ve climbed the Liberty Springs trail several times and in good conditions it’s not a difficult climb, but in February by an unprepared tourist? Seriously? This lady was absolutely clueless and should pay something for having someone go out there and lead her down the hill.
I’ll repeat what I wrote in the in the original post for this thread:
“I have been on the unpopular side (of past PNet discussions) of saying that rescues should be paid for by the rescuees. People often of talk of the primacy of their personal freedom. Well, IMO, along with that should come personal cost and accountability.”
My husband is a mountaineer ice climber pilot with five combat deployments and I hope someone would rescue him but we don’t count on it.
I was a critical care transport nurse and have been on some risky flights moving people but I plan my life as if no one is coming.
I do believe we should get something for our taxes but I don’t count on it. The USA has a lot of medical system problems but our 911 system is by far the best in the world. I would not change it because
It’s the one thing we do best, so “fix” something else is my opinion. Rescue teams do have it hard but I’d hate to see the skill set capacity erode.
There is a lot of sentiment about people that take excessive risk but there also are a lot of people who make poor dietary and substance choices and monopolize the resources of our health care system.
I appreciate your viewpoint. We do pay taxes and should expect something. However, with so many competing “somethings”, ours may be the that which get less support.
Also, appreciate the sentiment about risks and costs related to choices impacting health. I happen to be active and prioritize my ability to stay so as long as I can. Yet, I was born with a congential mitral valve defect. So, I had to get that repaired at the cost of 6 figures. But, I was fortunate to have great health care coverage through my employer and barely incurred any personal cost related to the operation. Unfortunately, THIS IS NOT TRUE for many Americans. So, bad personal health choices for many will be at the costs of their own financial well-being and/or morbidity and early death.
With adventurers that take bad risks, the costs are not only to themselves but at the risk of life for others that come to rescue. Levying a financial burden will help defray cost but, more importantly, offer a disincentive for folks to act recklessly (although the jury is still out on the latter).
At a time when the country is so divided, it seems like this would be polarizing because it invites people to judge each other and compete for medical care. I recently (pre-pandemic) took graduate-level bioethics at Northwestern after being out of school for many years. The training pertaining to treating all people as equalling deserving of care is unchanged. Critical care teams have always been trained to treat everyone, even criminals, as equally deserving of emergency medical care. I think this is a very slippery slope because there will always be an argument about why one person is more deserving than another. We need to have more shared values, not fewer, in a cohesive society.
Also, the line for “reckless” is very subjective and I am not sure why one would believe a consensus is realistically attainable.
Lastly, remember that half the population has an IQ under 100, through no fault of their own.
So, if a person makes a “stupid” decision based on low intellect, is it really any different from being born with a heart problem? If you are lucky enough to be smart, be thankful because a lot of people are below average. Intelligence is like beauty, you are lucky if you have it and nature assigns these attributes rather randomly.
I think there needs to be some kind of a line drawn between regular activities and those involving a risk that most people do not take on. Sadly in our nation of people who are older and mobility challenged or younger and addicted to a digital presence, things like hiking even into dead zones in the Adirondacks is not a majority activity. The parking situation in the High Peaks is horrid because of a lack of parking spaces. Not because a majority of those under the age of 30 are out doing hikes with significant elevation gain.
So once someone steps into that zone… they acquire more personal responsibility simply because they are more likely to be isolated doing it. If you look at the most absurd stories, much of the problem is an assumption that resources available to someone walking down the street in a suburb are equally accessible at the top of Mt Marcy.
Those resources are not the same. And figuring this may be an issue does not require excessive intelligence. Just a little time reading up on how to prepare and thinking about it for more than two minutes. Someone can even get this information on their cell phone, at least if they look before they enter the dead zone.
The same person who has to be rescued from the top of Mt Marcy likely spent time reading up on how to hook up their cell phone with the information systems in the car they are driving. I am on my third car that is significantly smarter than me and it takes more than two minutes to get things set up. In that same time someone could look at many trails or hiking sites and get the information that they should have had before getting stuck.
" . . . plan . . . as if no one is coming." Most firefighters, medical, police, military members live by an ethos, “So Others May Live.” Yet while they perform selflessly for others, so many snear their motives. For that matter, think of the electic line repair teams restoring power after a storm. Selfless people were infected by this recent bio-warfare experiment run amuck, that we helped finance, but the dedicated guardians stepped up to their mission. A grateful public bought them cupcakes to show support. Then our elected slugs bound their hands and feet and threw them into the darkness, where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. Who had their back? " . . . nobody is coming!"
A climber in the dead zone refuses to pay for rescue. If I recall correctly [I really didn’t follow closely], another recently rescued climber thanked everybody except the Sherpa guide who saved him. Maybe at least somebody bought the guide a cupcake. Everest is easy - pay for your rescue in advance.
What will we do as this level of self-indulgent ignorance consumes all of society. Just ask the heroes who are looking for new careers. They were told natural immunity from catching a disease before the vaccine was available is not adequate, because all the people who risked the vaccine could be at risk. Ignorance is bliss. They’ll tell you, “nobody is coming!” What will we do then? Maybe nobody should come. Wouldn’t that be an adrenaline rush!
I have been a Search and Rescue volunteer working with state and local law enforcement officials for many years and seen all kinds of incidents involving all types of people. When called, I respond as I can with or without other members of my team who are available. Being retired now, my time is usually available. However, I can’t always justify traveling to those incidents that may occur driving as far as five hours away on the other end of the state from my home. Especially for those incidents that are likely to be resolved quickly by those who live closer. My time isn’t worth much, but I don’t get reimbursed for the cost of travel or overnight stays if the distance is great. I have prepared and traveled to those, only to be told to stand down while on the way after I am there or still driving almost there. Incident resolved, dang it.
As civilian volunteers, we do not get called to directly participate in searches that may be criminal in nature. However, I do sometimes have second thoughts regarding if I should bother to participate in and incur personal expense in incidents where I know that the subject is suspected of choosing illegal drug use. My life-long aversion and disgust for drug abuse and those abusers who partake in it causes me to hesitate in my response. But in the end, I justify my effort as support to the subject’s family who I assume deserves closure, regardless of their responsibility leading to the cause. My support and effort may also serve to lessen time and expense of my SAR colleagues as well.
Lafayette is not a difficult hike overall but the conditions can be hard even in summer. I hiked it with two friends in the summer years ago. It was in the 80s at the base but the top of the peaks were in cloud. I told them it could be cold up at the top, and they blew me off because we were all sweating. It was about 40 and misting at the top, and they had to thank me for bringing extra long sleeves. This was in June I believe. I hate to say it, but this girl had no idea what she was doing and had little respect for the mountains going in as she did.
Very true but not appreciated by newbies or folks new to the White Mountains. This is especially so in the quick weather changes of the edge seasons of spring and fall. I had encountered feet of the snow cover in the upper trails in the spring and had been snowed on in late September/early October. Back in the 70s and 80s when I was doing a lot more of my solo week plus treks, there were no cell phones or service. You have to go with the right gear and enough food and clothes to hunker down if need be. There is no calling for a rescue if things go awry.
I would assume back in those days there were no cell phones at all. In the 80s when I was a kid, we associated cell phone with rich people. The weather is dangerous and unpredictable up there. In my early hikes we had cell phones but the coverage was bad. I remember doing Adams about 20 years ago and the reception was awful.
Believe it or not, my dad knew a guy back in the 70s when anything goes who took a dirtbike all the way to the top of Lafayette somehow.
Aand. There are several FB groups that are devoted to hiking the. Whites.
Its been very wet with downpours and flooding but with high low temps so people are planning to go with lighter gear.
Hah
The summer switch flipped off
No more highs in the 70’s
Highs in the upper 40’s; lows near freezing
Summer here could be done and it really never started
Eat your heart out you in the South
The good thing about FB is you can share the latest info; several hikers are repacking
Intelligence is like beauty, you are lucky if you have it and nature assigns these attributes rather randomly.