Sounds to me like…
... you just want to be skeptical instead of punching in the numbers yourself.
I don't blame you. Sounded a bit much to me too - so I checked.
If wind was N or S on Flathead it might only take 44 kts to get some 8 footers - at the far end.
What's missing is the time frame needed in a given direction.
i punched in the numbers
but that takes out the wind direction over a given fetch of water over time.
In the places mentioned the longest fetch of water runs contrary to prevailing wind direction.
So yes I am being skeptical, despite having numbers punched in.
possible and likely are two different things.
You Contrarian! 
Shawn Baker paddles Flathead and talks about 3’-4’ waves in storm sessions.
Personally, I was at Burlington by the breakwater on one windy day and watched what had to have been 4-6’ waves breaking into the breakwater. As I watched, a Coast Guard cutter came out of shed and raced out. As soon as the cutter passed the breakwater, I swore the boat was going to get flipped bow over stern as it hit those steep waves head on. Quite a sight. I know I was surprised by the size of the waves on an inland body of water.
sing
tell shawn I want photo evidence
:)
sorry for high jacking the rudder skeg debate, we can get back to that any time.
Greyak thanks for the wave height calculator!
I think the thing that tickles my doubting thomas gene is that according to that calculator we would have 3-4 foot waves almost every day on lake michigan. which are quite surfable, but alas we don't. Which leads me to believe that sustained wind direction over a given fetch of water is not as constant as i'd like.
So it's not so much that I disbelieve the lake champlain wave stories, but that there are many many variables that come in to play for waves that if the calculator is to be believed I could be surfing a lot more than I am, but I'm not dammit.
:)
what are your goals
as a kayaker. be realistic. it takes more skill to be without rudder or skeg. better get a proven design with the handling characteristics you prefer. be willing to learn edging, corrective strokes, paddling for long distances on one side of the boat (canoers like to do it). if you want to optimize your paddling skills, a bare boat is simple… skegs allow the same boat to be turny- skeg up- or tracking. skeg down. or anything in between. rudders? you can turn or track, just push the pedals, and you can go precisely where you want. without learning the finer points of boat control, the rudder will do it for you. not just for novices either, racers who want to maximize the power and direction of every stroke use rudders.
Yeah, wind tends to shift over time…
…in both direction and speed. Doesn’t often hold steady for extended periods in one area.
Exceptions are large semi-stationary systems like the Bermuda High when they set up. Trade winds also. Such things are normally over oceans.
Somewhere there is a probably a formula that also lets you plug in duration of the blow, but I am not that bored to search more. More advanced modeling factors in changes in direction and intensity over time.
NOAA forecasts do this - available in graphical format. First link is heights, second is period:
http://polar.ncep.noaa.gov/waves/latest_run/wna_ecg.anim.gif
http://polar.ncep.noaa.gov/waves/latest_run/wna_ecg.anim.2.gif
Bigger area:
http://facs.scripps.edu/surf/nata.html
(Sorry - couldn’t find animations for GLakes - Marine Forecasts do the same thing anyway).
not enough data
you aren’t going to go paddling in the winds that kick up those size of waves if you are also asking which to get.
First get a kayak that you fit in so that IF it gets breezy you arent taxed with excess windage. This means being at the upper end of it’s recommended paddler weight with maybe at the max enough displacement left over for 50lbs of stuff.
This way you’ll be getting the smallest kayak you feel comfortable in. Which means a kayak that’s lighter to carry and less vulnerable to wind. If it’s too cramped then shorter and a leetle wider can be better than long with lots of room,and lots of windage.
So if you’re 175lbs and are thinking of a Perception eclipse or Avatar,get the Avatar because you’ll have less up in the air. There’s a tendency to get a Winnebago of a kayak but you’ll regret it the first time the wind hits 15mph+. You won’t go faster in a smaller kayak,but you won’t go backwards.
A lot of folks enjoy rudders for big boats but I’d get the boat down to the right size THEN go from there. A lower windage lower volume kayak with a skeg will require a bit more paddling skill to point where you want to go compared to the big boat with a rudder but at some point the big boat with a rudder will require more horsepower to point in the right direction if it gets windy.
What Greyak Said…
Some hulls are designed for skegs. Some for rudders. Maybe a couple boats are designed to be neutral. Mariner, right folks?
Rent/demo/borrow some different boats and see what you like.
Do you know how to use a skeg? You know it ain’t just up=turny and down=tracky.
I Have Surfed Lake Tahoe
I don’t think a lot of East Coast people realize the dynamics of high altitude boating.
Extreme tempature differences make for extreme winds. 40MPH and more are common. At about 15 miles long by 7-8 miles wide, there is plenty of fetch to build up.
Buy the hull first
then obsess about whether it has a rudder or a skeg. As indicated above, you need to trust that the boat designer made the right choice re skeg or a rudder. My ruddered CD Squall is likely not a boat that would profit from a skeg, and a rudder would be silly on my NDK Explorer because the hull is designed to work with a skeg. Both boats are equally long-proven designs that can handle the worst stuff out there.
If you are really going to be out in 3 and 4 foot (closely spaced) wind-driven lake waves, the fit of the cockpit and the waterline you get in the boat matter most. In that stuff, at some point you’ll have to handle the boat extant from whatever help the tracking device can offer. And - for safety’s sake as well. Rudder cables and skeg lines can break, you need to be able to manage the boat without them in an energency.
As recommended, demo boats before buying, look for comfort and fit. And if you really want to investigate rudder/skeg, please please review the extensive responses in the threads in the archives.
Oh Christ… Here we go “a-g-a-i-n”…
NEITHER!!! Learn to turn & track by leaning & using your arms. Quit being such a lazy ass.
Paddle easy,
Coffee
“Where’s Coffee?”
“Oh he’s way back there. He thinks it’s macho to paddle with no skeg or rudder so he can’t keep up. Too busy battling the wind.”
“Doesn’t he usually paddle creeks in Kentucky or somewhere?”
LMAO! Not macho, but not 60 either…
I Live For The SkegRudderNone Posts
Coffee…
This is a beginning paddler asking for assistance. There is no need to get nasty, and there is no need to be blasphemous.
Please don’t take my reply as a personal attack on you. Let’s keep things in the intended spirit of this forum. Forgive me if you did not intend your post to sound this way.
There is no need to reply.
Matt
Lake Sham-plain 8’ ???
Is there a ‘N.Y.’ scale for wave heights?
nope
I lived on Lake Champlain for 20 years and have been on the water in pretty much every type of watercraft available and in all kinds of weather. I was on a 42’ sailboat w/sails down that was put on her side by a storm and seen ferry traffic stopped while the winds were up. I’m not sure how people who’ve never planted a paddle in those waters have become so knowledgeble about conditions there, but I know what I’ve seen and experienced. I know it’s too much to ask, but sometimes I wish that people on these boards would stick to talking about things they know something about. That would probably reduce traffic by about 2/3, though, wouldn’t it?
As for the poster’s original question - skeg or rudder? - do your homework, digest the opinions you get, then make a choice. You stumbled upon a topic that people get more impassioned about than almost any other. No matter what you choose, half the people will think you were right and the other half will think you’re a retard. Screw the pontificators - get in your boat, paddle, and have fun.
hmm
skeg has one major problem. when you need it the most, you have to take you hand OFF the paddle to adjust it!!! Kind of hard to brace with one hand!!! also you must Tweak the skeg from time to time removing a hand off the paddle again. Once the rudder is deployed its all toe control so you don’t have to ever let go of the paddle!! Other then that it’s a toss up.
Skeggs have a greater potential to leak, and get crap stuck up in them so they may jam in the UP position. Folks say rudders can Jam, personally I have never seen it, how ever I have had my Skeg get jammed up twice. If the rudder is jammed in the up position you can at least whack it with you paddle. If the skeg is jammed in the up position you cant do squat. Also its much easier to lube and or fix things on a rudder as you can get to the moving parts. Not so with a skeg. I have TWO of the same boats, one with a skeg and one with a rudder. I like the rudder boat better. When the rudder is up, it has no drag producing slot on the underside. BTW I hardly ever use my rudder or my skeg. This should add some more fuel to the fire. L
If your a beginner, buy the rudder.
It will allow you to enjoy kayaking until you develope better paddling skills. Just make sure the first hour or so of every trip, that you attempt to control your boat with the rudder up and a slow concentrated effort to paddle properly. After you become tired a frustrated with attempting to "carve" leaned turns, or throwing left hand sweep strokes on a 4:1 ratio, as I did when I started out...drop the rudder and enjoy yourself. (I use to stare at the keel of my QCC, looking for the 60 degree bend to the left, that had to be there!) One day, you will find that you've made your entire day trip, and didn't even think to drop the rudder. It's a cool feeling. Then you repeat the whole process in slightly rougher conditions close to shore and eventually, you will become confident that your prepared for that unexpected broken rudder cable right when conditions are deteriorating.
For Me, kayaking is an enjoyable sport, not a job. I always paddle rudder up at the start, but if there is a constant cross wind/current, the rudder gets dropped periodcally.
I Don’t Care What Folks Use…
but seriously… You really think taking one hand off the paddle for a second or two to adjust a skeg is that difficult or dangerous? I think folks should really consider what they are doing out there if that be the case.
sing
