You might call my comparison of form for forward and backward strokes going overboard, but if you do it's because you missed the point. The point was, very simply, there's no logical reason that you can't use torso rotation simply because you are not reaching "way back" in a manner that forces you to rotate. The OP seemed to believe that planting the paddle for a reverse stroke at about the same location that a stroke would end when going forward is reason enough to be prevented from using rotation, and I just gave an example to show that this isn't the case at all. There's nothing about the range of motion available to one's body that changes when reversing the paddle movement within the same range of locations. Clear enough?
Oh, and I agree with Pete that when back ferrying in swift current for a must-make maneuver with little room to spare, using the most efficient reverse stroke that you can might make all the difference. This isn't strictly an "academic" problem if you are the person in that situation.
The comments here have been a good and interesting read. I appreciate all the responses.
After my LSD paddle this evening, I practiced both reverse stroke methods. The fishermen probably thought I was nuts going backward for so long.
Schumann's method allows for full rotation, as noted in my original post. While you can't help but rotate when planting the paddle slightly behind your hip, you're not as fully rotated as when you reach for the stern. I also see more real estate behind me, including peripherally, when fully rotated versus partially. In some circumstances, that's important.
While it was easy to move and control the boat while using the back face of the paddle, I recalled Clyde's comment about using the power face and tried it. All it takes is a slight flex of the wrist. The power face gave me even better control and boat speed was a little over 2MPH with very little effort. There was no downward push on the blade; just planted and the rotation moved me backward. Nor did I feel pressure on my shoulders or arms; the stroke just felt natural and comfortable.
Partial rotation and planting slightly beind the hip also works, but I do get some yaw with the boat and pressure on my arm muscles, the kind you feel when you have to bring your kayak to a quick stop.
My preference is Schumman's method but that only works in water deep enough to submerge the paddle blade.
I share CapeFear's philosophy about practice. I'll generally spend 30 minutes or more after a LSD paddle to practice strokes I do know, and try new ones. Last summer I got some good suggestions here when I was having trouble keeping my boat straight while doing a sculling draw. I printed out the posts, put them in a plastic sheet, and attached it to my deck. Then methodically tried every suggestion until I got it right. I love that stroke; it gets me right next to my dock every time I come in.
Why practice a reverse stroke? When I'm paddling through a harbor with two active marinas, sometimes I need to move in reverse very quickly as the docks are high and when you're only two feet above the water, you can't always see what's about to cross your path until her bow emerges.
Of course, this is all subjective and applies only to my body, my boat, and my blade.
I just wish my bow rudder practice had gone as well as the reverse strokes - but that's another topic.
And I didn't argue against torso rotation. I have no idea where you got that.
Obviously a shorter stroke is more efficient, all things equal. But back paddling isn't a distance stroke and sometimes efficiency takes a back seat to stability or maneuverability. which is why I wrote what I did.
I think after years of paddling all this stuff just sort of runs together and you do with your paddle what your instincts tell you to do in the situation to accomplish the task at hand. So sometimes you reach waaaay back - othertimes not depending on the situation you are in. So when learning its probably good to use all sorts of different strokes to go backwards and also to get your self in all sorts of different conditions so you can experiment.
A very common take on the subject. “Forget speed! Forced on how much energy you are burning. I don’t need to rotate my torso. I see no benefit from doing so.”
It’s most interesting because you were typing in context of paddling into a stiff wind.
The ability to paddle the kayak faster given calm, windless conditions will equate to an ability to make progress against more wind/current/conditions. You might be traveling under 2 knots against 25 knot winds and 4 - 6 foot seas at 6 seconds. You might be fighting a building tidal current trying to make your destination. So as real as “forget speed” is, a stronger forward stroke better lending itself to fighting wind and current is as real as real can be.
One thing I learned is that unused muscles are out-of-shape muscles. They are out of shape regardless of their overall potential. So starting to use hip and torso rotation when you have never used it, is like starting to run when you never run. It will quickly leave you winded and feeling exhausted if all you ever do is experiment with it every now and again. And that will never change.
Think of a walker that decides they want to start to run. They start off walking, and then run for a spell, get winded, and then go back to walking. If committed, they gradually increase the level of running in relation to walking. If they find they enjoy it, eventually walking doesn’t do it for them anymore, and they chuckle about how they got winded and had to walk after 100 yards.
Nothing wrong with either choice, walking or running. But the first day the walker pulled off 100 yards before stopping and gasping for air wasn’t really the rule of the running experience for them unless they choose it to be (or for medical or emotional or psychological or whatever out-of-your-own-control limitations, of course). If you don’t use hip and torso rotation, this is how attempting to use it will feel. You don’t know how the experience would be unless you choose to start to work those muscles and get them in shape. The longer you’ve been arm paddling, the bigger the divide between how arm paddling feels, and how using those muscles for the first time is going to feel. Of course arm paddling feels easier. It is easier to rely on conditioned muscles than out-of-shape muscles…at least in the moment. At low-powered paces, arm-paddling may always be easier, although you will probably switch it up to rotation to keep blood flow and comfort in your lower half if you have the ability to do so. I certainly use it for that even lily-dipping with a group.
All this to say that if you tried to experiment with it and it felt harder, that makes perfect sense. It may or may not be worth working through for you personally. Most people don’t. You may or may not even be capable of working through it. But you should be able to recognize a potential benefit. You could be able to progress against bigger winds for longer distances, for example.
Okay Since I made a fairly detailed comparison of forward and backward stroke methods, I thought my earlier post must be one that you were referring to.
Edging when reverse paddling, yes starting from just in back of midpoint rather than from the stern, generally works well for me. A top sea kayak instructor suggested doing this instead of the full-stern length and I found it was more effective. It does not limit torso rotation. Helps to lean slightly forward, unweighting the stern keel and allowing the boat to wiggle a bit. Despite not being a straight line, the overall effect is to move to the intended spot faster, because it is easier to make tiny corrections than it is to change a course that the kayak has veered off from and dug into.
A WW kayaker also recommended this way of reverse paddling. The boat may wiggle more but it still gets there faster.
tried some back paddling today for all about 3 minutes and I was ready to quit. It worked my arms more than forward paddling. I was feeling kind of blah, over all tired feeling, so it wasn’t a good day practice long so I mostly just did a lazy float.
I didn’t reach very far back and the first few strokes were fine and then the boat veered. The current was probably about 1 mph in the stretch I was practicing on. So the current magnified any wriggle I made as I headed down stream. I found it awkward to look at the current over my shoulder and finish the stroke and start the next. Current complicates things. Did a slot move through and around rocks going forward-one of those where your not sure you can squeeze the boat through. I found myself drawing both ends of the boat around. That required some real reaching and keeping the paddle vertical in tight quarters.
What I am trying to say is that there is not just one best way to back paddle. There are many different ways and they all have merit depending on the situation you find yourself in.
Good point Midweek my kayak is locked to my dock, bow towards land for convenience. Plop it in the water and enter from my dock (don’t want my shoes sandy or wet); water is shallow there so I’ll use the low angle back stroke to get to deeper water, then switch to the Schumann method (don’t know what else to call it: high angle reverse?)
Anyway, your point is valid as conditions sometimes require changes, especially when paddling into a strong headwind.
probably need to clean up the technique a bit, but it ain’t easy. I’ve been paddling the last few days so you get kinda worn out to start with and had hand paddled about 1/3 of the way down the run before I tried the backwards stuff. The current was a bit twisty but what really makes it hard is that your facing the opposite direction than you’re moving.
There’s a huge advantage back ferrying where you can see where you’re going and you’re just trying to slow down the action or move laterally across the current. However when you point the boat facing upstream and start backpaddling to go downstream, well it’s not as easy as it looks, especially when you got to turn your head to watch for rocks and shifting current. I think I did pretty good lasting three or four minutes doin’ it. I find it tiring and I can’t last long. Kind of like ice skatin’ backwards, you got to keep your head turned while your weavin’ and bobbin’ so you don’t run into stuff. Only in this case the ice is moving as well, but you got to keep looking so you stay parallel to the current otherwise you spend your time 360in’ and catch a few rocks. Nothin’ wrong with that (spinning your way down the river and practice leaning against rocks) but that’s not what I was tryin’ to do.
Lots of folks got problems gettin’ creekers to go straight goin’ forward when they first get them. I think I’m over that hump. A bit trickier is paddling backwards in one but also going with the current while your facing upstream. Hard to get any good rotation because you kinda need the head turned to see where you’re goin’ most of the time. I’m gonna give myself permission to struggle a bit at this and try it in small doses.
So why do it at all? When you get unintentionally spun around in rapids you are learning you can paddle backwards through stuff. In fact I think we had a whole thread and video of somebody doing that very thing in a canoe a while back unintentionally. It just ain’t easy that’s all. The arms get a lot more tired back paddlin’ than they do forward paddlin’- might also be using some different muscles than we normally do.