...my QCC fights a balance brace (yet rolls very easily).
Depth of coaming off the bottom and distance form the coaming side to the gunwales both definitely matter for certain maneuvers.
While the box/barrel thing us useful to visualize differences in when energy needs to be applied - it also get the wrong idea in people's heads about chines. Many assume hard chines hulls are automatically more boxlike and will punctuate a roll more, or stay on edge more easily. It's just not always so, and such handliong traits have littel or nothing to do with the chines. Round chined boats can have deep slab sides, while hard chined can have shallower and more angled sides. Both can come either way depending on design..
In overall cross section my soft chined/rounded QCC 700 is more boxlike amidships than my 100% hard chined skin boat. The SOF has more flare & deadrise, 2" less beam, and 2" less depth of sheer (about 3-4" less height at rear of coaming). Result being it's much rounder overall despite the apparent corners, and all these factors matter while the chine edges really don't.
PS - I'm talking variations within sea kayaks only. Flat bottomed deep sided planing hull WW and Surf kayaks are a different deal.
Great - a challenge Yup, the Piedra I’ve been messing around in is an astoundingly easy boat to roll. I have no doubt that it’ll be the boat to start a bona fide hand roll with in the pool this winter. (Though I don’t think I’d call it any easier than the old drop skeg RM Necky Elaho we have.)
But I didn’t learn in that boat, learned in sea kayaks and messed around this last winter with a couple of planing hull boats, so it’d be fun to find a Space Cadet. (The boat I mean.)
space cadet = relearn the roll Since you’re mostly a sea kayaker, if you got in a Space Cadet odds are you would have to relearn your roll as the hipsnap needed is very dynamic. I’ve spent some time in Liquid Logic boats including the Space Cadet (I own a Scooter) and they aren’t the most roll friendly boats in the world. They are among some of the harder boats that I have rolled but they are great for roll training and its great that you’re looking to challenge yourself with them.
I figure if I have a bombproof rolls in those types of boats, most other boats will be a piece of cake.
Hip snap or thigh lift or whatever... that was the only functional part of my roll while I spent a couple of years trying to figure out how to add a paddle and not blow it. Since the full roll was failing me, I just kept going back and working on the lower body thing, at least on my right. As a result I ended up redoing and improving that probably a good three times while I waited for the head and arms to catch up. I waited a little long to start the offside, so one of the winter goals is to catch the left up to the right so I have fast power when I need it there too.
Just looked at a pic of the Space Cadet, and I think I've seen one in a local pool session. I recall thinking and hearing at the time that it was a tough roll, if it is the right boat. I see a (literally) larger problem for me. The boat is rated for someone at least 15-20 pounds heavier than me, with a quite long cockpit for me and a pretty vertical rise to the braces. Unlike some of the pancakes like the WaveSportZ, this is not a boat that'll be kind to someone who is under-sized for it. Good chance I have both volume and purchase problems with it.
Bouyancy relative to the paddler If chines are less an issue, but the bouyancy placement within the boat is more so, then is a boat more responsive to rolling when the bouyancy is distributed throughout the hull, or when concentrated closer to the paddler’s location in the boat?
rolling on my trip down to baja this past week, i got my roll down. i found i had a way easier time rolling the CD storm i tried rather than the narpa. once i got my roll with the storm, i was able to do it in the wider narpa.
so my opinion in learning to roll, a narrower rounder hull makes things easier. than you can apply that to different boats
Scott It’s not so much where (along the boats length) that matters but rather where vertically (relative to the paddlers CoG) that makes the greater effect. Note that the center of bouyancy moves as the boat goes through various angles of lean.
This winter try one of my boats without it’s seat and with it’s seat. The handling / ease of rolling is markedly different.
This is also why many of the Greenland style rolling stars use “cheater boats” with volume too low to function in large seas (according to the euro perspective). You can approximate low volume in a euro boat by flooding the cockpit and / or the hatches to lower the boat in the water and reduce the amount of reserve bouyancy. It’s a similar effect that makes a fully loaded boat easier (if a bit slower) to roll.
Yea… A Displacement Hull Is Easier to roll but would you want to “play” with one on the river? Some still like their displacement hulls. Guess I am glad I started later and have a choice of a planing hull. I’ll take a planing hull any day, for ww play and surfing, even if it’s harder to roll. It’s about “ends” and “means”. If the “end” is being able to roll a hundred and one ways, then, yeah, go get a displacement hull for that ease of rolling. If the roll is a means to a craft that can play harder/better in a certain medium, then develop the ability and mindset to roll whatever that craft is for the better ride with. Get your roll together with that craft and go out and rip. The roll is just a means to let you play harder and safer.
Zoar this spring We are luckliy within a reasonable shot of the Zoar WW center in Massachusetts, and plan to go out there to check out boats in the spring. By then I figure I’ll be able to better appreciate the planing hull boats and make good decisions. We’ve had our WW boats out here, me in the Piedra, in some very local moving water around some islands at the confluence of the Mohawk and Hudson for basic practice each of the last few weeks. Not even class 2, but enough to cross and hop around between eddies, get acclimated to handling the short boats.
Interesting that this discussion has included dialogue about the relative degree to which a boat can be easy or hard to roll but have different behaviors in supporting the static brace (or a full-over on your back scull). I happen to be one of those for whom the brace was pretty easy once I learned to relax, due to physiology more than talent.
How easily a boat supports me in a static brace mostly depends on where the inherent balance of the boat lies on its side, and how much volume of boat is supporting me at that point. The further away I have to tilt the boat to find that point, the harder it is to brace because every degree of tilt away from 90 degrees to the water requires more lower back flexibility and a little more conscious push/pull in my legs. The more volume a boat has opposing me at that point, the easier it is because it'll take less effort to hold it there. The combination of factors can make the static brace easy or hard quite independent of the chining.
Linking back to post from Jay about the finish and width from the hip to the outside of the boat being critical in how a boat rolls... the rank I'd put the boats I've tried for ease of rolling does have some correlation to how easily they static brace. The ones that sit happily at 90 degrees tend to be easier to roll. The ones that have to sit at more like 110-120 degrees have a fussier finish, at least in sea kayaks. Fairly limited experience in WW so far, but except for the Piedra I'd have to say this was also true for the Jackson Hero, the WaveSportZ and the Pirouette S. The Hero was definately fussier than the Z, which requires muscle for me to lift but just falls upright once it's there.
Again, I am blessed with good flexibility and very little weight in the torso once in the PFD. So the static brace is an easier matter for me than larger folks and my experience may not transfer.
PS - I agree that rolling is about doing it when you need it. So I rate myself as a poor roller even tho I can do cool stuff in the flats, because I still get too easily freaked in complicated stuff and fail to execute. But I've been able to gradually increase my range in real stuff by messing around with alternatives in flat water, since it gives me more a more robust sense of command of the boat and practice at staying down longer.
Adjustments for rolling Boats differ in a number of ways that make adjustments necessary in how one executes a roll. One of the adjustments is the timing of the energy you put into the “hip snap”. For example, most people when they do a C-to-C roll put out a burst of energy at the very beginning and then sustained but lower pressure for the rest of the roll. This does not work well for a boat with strong secondary stability because the rotation tends to stall out near the end and leads to people raising their heads. This means that for some boats it helps (may be necessary) to control when you put forth bursts of energy. You can do this by breath control. Try exhaling while you roll – small amounts most of the time but bigger amounts when you want an energy burst. Sort of like:
Woof! … Woof! … if you want a little boost to get by the secondary stability point. This will train you to a pattern and after that you can hold your breath normally.
A second set of adjustments has to do with body lean (forward, centered, backward) while you execute the roll and where you finish. A lot of people, including me, have had trouble rolling the Dragorossi Fish. It turns out that you need a lot more weight forward than most people are used to. So the rolls that work best are back deck rolls (low brace, dry head, finish over the bow), C-to-C rolls where you finish with a forward lean, and sweeep rolls where you sweep your body across the bow more than usual. In contrast, Jackson kayaks respond very well to EJ’s roll (C-to-C with layback) which emphasizes weight toward the stern.
Balance Brace Regarding balance braces ,I think one major factor of hull design is freeboard,no surprize there.
My Ellesmere is easy to roll but hard to balance brace when empty. When it’s loaded with camping gear I can balance brace it effortlessly,it’s even tolerant of some poor form. It must only sink down about an inch or so when loaded but the differnce is dramatic.In this example all things are the same except how low it rides in the water.I’m about 150 lbs,probably a little light for that boat.
I'll probably be bringing that. I understood your point on how the bouyancy piece is a big factor, but curious as to how much it effects rolling in terms of where it is located in the boat. No not shopping for a new boat, but just wondered how something like the Warren Light Craft - Little Wing responds to rolling with those big pockets of bouyancy placed fore and aft or a strong Swede form with a lot of the bouyancy behind the paddler. Quite content with the bouyancy design of the Explorer, but can't say the same for my upper torso.