I think Lou said that
The guy said that he knew he had to desensitise to (under)water issues several posts up. And that’s what he is doing, practicing things like partial rolls etc that increase his habit and comfort at staying in the boat for a bit.
As to practicing alone… it’s best if possible. But having myself had the choice between losing whatever progress I had just made by waiting for a time when I had help, or going out myself and just doing what I could, you have to take your best shot. The right kind of help isn’t always around when you have the time. And at some point everyone has to learn to solve problems on their own, because “having” the roll will wobble back and forth for a while at first.
I disagree
Greyak gave him the best advise when he said don’t practice alone.
Somebody so afraid of the water should not “play” without an observer.
If help is not available… wait another day. There is always time for learning.
Fear of
Maybe I am mising something here, but I am not reading a huge fear of the water. It doesn’t seem there is an issue with swimming, or being underwater per se, just with the specifics of waiting in the darned boat and setup etc for the roll. That is a different thing, though hardly anyone gets it.
And yes, practicing alone has to be done with a great deal of attention to exactly what someone can and can’t handle that day. But that also seems to be happening, from someone who appears to be a thoughtful (maybe overly much) adult.
Lou has been kind enough to share hesitations and concerns that I know many paddlers contemplating learning a roll have, but are reluctant to share because this topic is often dominated by people for whom it came easily. Frankly there is at least one person in my workplace that paddles local rivers who I wish would read this stuff. I have not been able to convice him that a lot of people start out with extraordinary degrees of anxiety and are able to overcome that. Between his extremely high anxiety and his belief that he must be the only one who is so afraid, I haven’t been able to get him to practice even one wet exit despite numerous offers of a safe place and assistance to try it. Of course, there is no way to keep him out of the boat either. So, I keep trying…
"dominated by people…
– Last Updated: Jul-27-05 2:35 PM EST –
... for whom it came easy." ???
You really need to get off that kick Celia. Why do you keep discounting the advice from the very people who can probably help him the most?
Your co-dependent support group approach is all warm and fuzzy but does nothing to help when he's cold and wet. It reinforces that it is hard. What others are trying to say is it doesn't have to be if you're actually ready. It doesn't sound like Lou is.
All had some mix of the same issues as everyone else while learning. What matters here is that some responded to these issues differently - and because of that the ones who had the most different experience and learned the fastest might just be in the best position to get him out of his rut.
Those of us you like to lump into that "easy" category come in all varieties. I would not call my pre-rolling efforts "easy". I actually got no better by practicing (though the muscles were learning a bit - and I was getting used to things underwater more).
My very first attempt was actually better than nearly all that came after, even a year later. One day I finally dropped what I though was supposed to happen and simply felt what was actually going on. I had to relax and slow it down to feel it first, then Bang! - there it was. No noticeable improvement along the way at all really. No incrementally getting closer. It was more of a breakthrough than a progression (though I'm sure some sort of shaky foundation was built as I flailed about doing it wrong all those times). The most notable thing was the ease of rolling compared to all the struggles of trying to roll up to that point.
Lou still insists on struggling (and you seem to think this is good). Until he stops this the roll will elude him - or he'll get a very forced and unreliable roll. He needs to trust us when we tell him he needs to be relaxed.
"hardly anyone gets it" ??? Right now Lou is the one not getting it - and hammering on the "specifics" are messing him up even more. He needs to work on more basic comfort issues (as he is - but even simpler - without even trying all the other stuff).
Until he's comfortable to the point of not even thinking about getting out or getting air (because he knows that's a given - AFTER the attempts) he won't be able to relax enough to feel what all those specifics are really about. He'll miss the point that it all integrates into one smooth easy motion that is not really that different from any other stroke.
Coddle all you want, but you have your roll. Would people telling you it's supposed to be hard and that it's OK to ignore proven advice have helped you get yours any faster? Would continuing to do counterproductive work despite many telling you not to (and telling you WHY not to) have helped you?
Maybe Lou doesn't have water issues (but most sane people are adverse to potential drownings). Maybe it's claustrophobia. It doesn't matter really. What matters is there are often things that need to be addressed BEFORE learning to roll if the roll is to be learned effectively. If it's NOT easy - something is wrong.
Forgive me for wanting to identify that and weed it out.
No one is attacking Lou. We all offer what we have to offer in the way we think gets across most effectively. Everyone who has participated in Lou's threads has done so out of a sincere interest in his progress. It's pretty obvious from his posts he understands that. Why can't you?
As for not practicing alone - it goes beyond common sense. As you have noted, Lou needs support. Well, he needs it on the water a lot more than he needs it here. I assume I am more comfortable in the water, and I almost always paddle alone so I'm used to that too, but try as I might I really couldn't get myself to practice this stuff alone. I didn't really need help, just someone there. I'll practice alone now because I have no doubt I'll roll up, and no doubt that if I don't I have other options and none of it's a big deal. Even so, I still hesitate when it's just me. I really think Lou needs to keep that one hesitation out of the picture for a while.
As for that co-worker that won't practice basic skills: What are you thinking Celia!!!! I'd not only offer to help him learn as you have, I'd also simply refuse to paddle with him until he did! I just can't condone someone paddling who is to afraid to even wet exit. I see it as a requirement - not an option. I wouldn't stop him from doing whatever he wants to on his own (big boy and all), but I certainly wouldn't just let him slide! By paddling with him you are providing a false sense of security and enabling unsafe behavior.
Hey, Lou - while were at it, got any pictures of your cockpit outfitting?
A question for you Lou
Do you wear a dive/snorkel mask when you practice? If not it might help some with the sudden urge to get to the surface.
100% agree
The concept that rolling is “hard” and an “advanced move” has prevented way too many paddlers from learning it. It IS easy, it IS a basic skill, and to reiterate what has been said several times, if it’s hard, you’re doing it wrong. I have worked with many beginner kayakers on rolling and have worked with people who are terrified of water, arm rollers, poor habits from other classes/videos, etc. Although I may had to spend an additional 15-30 minutes with them to unlearn bad habits, the basic roll came soon afterwards. Sort of like EJ’s 15 minute roll guarantee, I have never had a student not learn to roll extremely quickly when taught properly.
Lou, you know we’re all rooting for you, but all your efforts seem misguided as they are not actually bringing you closer to rolling but rather further away.
I see your point.
Certainly, my paddle is very different in shape from my paddle float. the reason that I’m persuiing the paddle float route is because I was able to progress to a successful roll using this method in class, and was able to roll afterwards in another class using both my boat and paddle.
I’m using the “nothing succeeds like success” strategy. If that doesn’t work, I’ll try something else.
Lou
Didn’t say it was hard guys
I don’t believe I’ve ever said rolling per se was hard, though I know some who argue that it is. Personally I have always found the concepts and and the individual components of it frustratingly easy, if those were the only things involved. It’s getting to the state of mind, and the folks who have actually worked with me hardly call my approach warm or fuzzy.
I have said it takes some people more time to get that all together. You can argue about whether it should take more time endlessly, but I very much doubt that it’ll change the fact that people have different learning paths.
Skirt for Petrussen
The key to the Petrussen is rotating your body (including shifting around so that your butt is somewhat on the side of the seat). Roomy kayaks require little torso rotation (you can shuffle around more), narrow kayaks usually require more torso rotation since your lower body is more constricted.
Although a tuilik lets you cheat, you don’t need to be extended more than an inch or so away from the seat. It’s easiest in a tuilik due to the freedom of motion, but my neoprene skirts work just fine. All the nylon skirts I have tried popped off the coaming.
Greg Stamer
Your Point Is Well Taken
It’s more of an entrapment under water issue. Wet exit practice sounds like it might help.
Thanks Greyak,
body position?
I’ve been pulling up towards the chine. My face is about an inch underwater, a small movement with one hand pops me up to breathe. I’m sure once drysuit season returns I’ll have enough buoyancy to make it easy. My akuilisaq doesn’t restrict motion, but the cockpit is relatively tight
Looking at the photo I’m wondering if I should be pushing away from the chine to move my torso further from the boat, rather than pulling up? I’ll give that a try tomorrow evening.
Ralph
Maybe an email list
Just an idea Lou, if you sign in and find this all a bit silly.
No Special Outfitting
A Stock Nighthawk 16’
Actually, I’m not expecting guidance
although it is much appreciated.
I just think that there are more than a few people reading these threads who share this problem and may be encouraged to persist and take one or more of the advice given here, and maybe learn to roll after all. Heck, if any of these people live in western Long Island, we could work together if you want.
Lou
Mask & Nose Clips
Tey make a big difference. Of course, I’ll have to shed them some day.
Lou
Anything can be said to be easy.
However, something that often takes aspirants extended effort and time can reasonably be referred to as difficult or hard.
I think the hardest thing in getting a roll is all the aspects happening at the right time in the right way. It seems that most times when someone misses a roll, it is one identifiable thing that caused the roll to fail.
My failed rolls are almost always weak hip snap (often ending it too soon)or bringing my head up. I ‘know’ each component of the roll (at least C2C and extended) but have yet to pattern to memory so it all always happens as and when it should.
Once I even sculled up onto my rear deck effortlessly, but have yet to replicate it well - practice and muscle memory
Not Sure I Follow Celia
What kind of an e-mail list?
Lou
I don’t paddle with that coworker
And I don’t think I said I did. I am aware of his issues from talking with him about his paddling and have made many offers to get together after work in a little shallow water and help.
body position
I pull down on the hull (like performing a pull-up). This is a fairly minor point, IMO. It’s more about finding the right body position that allows your head to easily clear the surface. Even your legs come into play.
Greg Stamer
Rolling is easy, learning may be hard.
Rolling is very easy; I should qualify this to say that at least some rolls, such as the screw roll or Pawlata, are very easy. Learning to roll however can be difficult, the motions are counterintuitive and being uncomfortable hanging underwater upside down holding your breath complicates the process. Anyone having difficulty learning should try to remember that once you’ve learned the sequence of motions, and practiced until they become smooth and automatic, rolling your boat will become easy and it is worth the effort.
Ralph