Rolling for the less limber

Just getting ready…

– Last Updated: Jan-15-08 8:06 AM EST –

Back at the gym after four months out of a boat due to medical stuff, so that I don't hurt myself at the pool sessions starting in a couple of weeks. I figure one session to get the right side back into some kind of shape and hopefully no more than three to recover the left. That side was much later in coming along. But I'm easy - just need to get body memory renewed.

There's been a dialogue among some of the others enrolled who are just coming up the curve, which seens to go to expectations. Hence my musing.

Roll
A patient teacher and determination. Within reason,age is not a factor in my experience. Vaughn Fulton

Youth is wasted on the young -
- Mark Twain



Older people generally can’t do anything physically as well as young people and I’m in that category. I’m 61 - I do Yoga, exercise, blah, blah etc. Generally older people are not as flexible, as fearless or as energetic as the young paddlers. Can they learn to roll in 1 lesson - absolutely. Some it takes months and some - never.

You’re only old when------
“You’re only old when you will not be young” Tom Rapp, singer of group “Pearls before Swine”- A quote I find more useful every year, as it points out that attitude is more limiting than age.



At 62 I’m much older than my friend Jay, but I do have to second everything the young man said, especially his often stated observation that Yoga helps flexibility.



I learned a layback roll about three years ago with the help of ConnYak friends at pool sessions and can come up consistently on my rt. side. However, I realize my roll is far too paddle dependent (I’m cranking down hard on the GP at the end) and I’ve developed the bad habit of allowing my outer hand to drift out too far while my near hand drifts up off my body. As a general rule, this practice risks shoulder injury and to make it worse, it’s my reconstructed shoulder I’m putting at risk.



I scheduled a lesson with Cheri and Turner last weekend. I didn’t expect them to solve all my problems on the spot, and I’m certainly still a work in progress. What they did accomplish is leaving me with a much greater understanding of what I’m doing wrong and what I have to do to correct the flaws in my technique. Now I have to implement what I learned into my rolling and then make it habitual.



I recommend 1:1 mentoring/instruction with knowledgeable folk as extremely helpful in learning and refining rolling.



Dave

Proprioceptors include pressure,
tension, etc., in the joints, skin, tendons, and muscles. They provide us with information about the movement of our body in space.



Many young people can close their eyes and balance for a while on one foot. With age, this is less and less possible. With less proprioceptive input, the balance receptors in the ear do not suffice.

middle aged
:slight_smile: thanks for calling 67 middle aged LOL

Me Too!
Had a lesson with them too last weekend! Mine was at 11:40. Yours must have been earlier.



What I got from Cheri is that my main objective with the paddle is to end up laying on the back deck with it tucked under my chin. The movement involved first moving the elbow of the hand holding end of the blade into a tucked position, then straighten the other shoulder and tuck the other elbow, ending with the shaft under my chin. All of this happening while I move my body to lie on the back deck. Easier said than done.



I didn’t feel any strain on my shoulder. I felt most of the strain on my quads & abs.



Lou

Doing It Right Then…
if your quads and abs feel more used than your arms and shoulders.



sing

Good definition
Now everyone understands.



I had to look the word up and still didn’t understand it.

???
Limberness – my offside roll is hopeless without doing some stretching beforehand. I think older paddlers should be encouraged to stretch.

Rolling for old timers.
I’m only 50 and I have a torn rotator cuff, and without health insurance its just going to stay that way. I had to learn how to paddle using what you would call paddling in the box method.

Since I wanted to learn how to roll and do some of the other techniques everyone describes here. I built my first sea kayak, a Greenland decked Night heron. Around here the sit on top is king so I could not find instruction. Those who claimed they could roll always had some excuse why they couldn’t teach or show me. So I had to learn on my own. I don’t have a DVD or high speed internet connection, so I could not download any video on how its done, and just relied on the descriptions posted on this board. This got me partly there, but it wasn’t until I realized that all I had to do to roll, was to use the same paddle in the box method I had already learned. If I capsized on the plant I roll up on the same side, and if I capsize at the release I roll up on the opposite side. For me this is just very simply. In the six months that I have been rolling I haven’t missed a roll in the last five months. I’m on the water six days a week and practice between a hundred and three hundred rolls each time I’m out. Depending if I’m fishing or not. For me the Night heron is the best fishing boat I’ve ever been in. With my bad shoulder I just can’t paddle those barges everyone claims to be fishing machines any more. So the point is instead of trying to turn some old timer into Gumby. Why not observe them and see what they can do and match them with an appropriate roll. If I’m not mistaken there must be at least 20 or so rolls and many variations. Surely one of these should match there paddling style and physical limitations. Just a thought.

Michael

EJ Did Wonders for Me
The emphasis on “keep your head BACK” helped me much more than others telling me “keep your head DOWN”. Maybe that’s 'cause I ain’t so limber.

key point
I think you touched a key point there, ability to isolate muscle groups. Body awareness plays a big part of learning to roll effortlessly as though turning over in bed. And being aware of spatial orientation of your body. In my experience. So therefore exercises to improve or get in touch with awareness and orientation ought to help. This is a thought that just occurred to me as I read your post. Cheri and Turner always have classes stretch and introduce before the rolling starts, during that time they are assessing folks and planning strategy.

Inspirational YouTube-type Video
For a superb video, check out the link below. The woman doing the rolling is no spring chicken!!! I saw the demo itself, and I’m not about to try to guess her age. She’s just wonderful.



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3743892883821230409&hl=en

Alison Sigethy
at the Delmarva paddlers retreat this past October. My guess is that Alison is somewhere between 40 and 50. For those into skinny stick paddling, Delmarva is a really wonderful experience. Alison also teaches at the East Coast Canoe and Kayak Festival on James Island in SC each April. To see more: http://goingtogreenland.com/ .



The key point in the video is not only flexibility, but the ability to relax through the roll. If you think of the balance brace as the foundation of the layback rolls, there’s no denying that flexibility is key. OTOH, the balance brace when done well is mostly w/o effort.



Old folks may lack something in flexibility–I certainly do–but it is possible to make up for it with wisdom, including the ability to relax and observe what’s happening.

complicated subject
There could be a lot involved here.

First, I would say that the concern about time frame to learn is one that is not limited to those with grey hair. Indeed, the length of time it takes to learn to roll is not necessarily indicative of the the quality of the final product. Those that struggle and take months to learn spend a lot of time upside down, and often become the better rollers.

As a chiding to those who think a good instructor is one who can “teach anyone to roll in 15 minutes”, I would counter that that may just temporary performance art. Teaching one to do a roll is a different process than teaching rolling.

Summation- time spent upside down is time well spent.



As for barriers to learning for the aged, consider this interesting bit. There is significant evidence to support a hypothesis (not yet a theory) that nearly all our physical movement patterns are developed very young- by 5 years old, or even 2-3 by some researchers. Our ability to learn new skills comes from re-sequencing things we already know.

One ramification of this is the ability for some to learn from verbal instruction, especially the common use of relating the new, unknown movement to something known (it’s kinda like doing a pushup…).

Of greater concern is the struggle some people have in learning a new skill (again, beware the instructor that says they can teach anyone in 15minutes- are they only recognizing their successes, and ignoring the people that, to their mind, failed? Did they “fail” becuase they didn’t respond to the teachers particular method?). That is, those of a particular sex and generation that weren’t allowed to play physically when young. Ever wonder why older women taking up sport late in life have such a struggle? Perhaps because they were only allowed to play inside, and only with dolls!

Is it hopeless for them? No, but common used (IMO, abused) teaching methods don’t work well. Verbal instruction doesn’t work well, because they lack enough action patterns to relate to. Visual as well. Kinesthetic approaches to guide them into proper movement is best (what is a “hip snap”? what is a “driving knee”? Why not, with the skirt off and the student in the set up, actually tapping your hand on the leg you want them to relax, then push your hand on the other leg and tell them to push back? Then you can give any name you want to the resulting action).



Another thing- verbal instruction to “keep the head down” may eventually lead to results, but is inefficient teaching. In nearly all cases, the head coming up first is not the cause, but the symptom. No leg action at all, or, commonly, both legs/knees are pulling. These will frequently result when a paddle based approach is employed as that focuses the students attention on the upper body. I frequently see people trying to teach people who are repeating failed attempt after failed attempt, with the only feedback a verbal one, that of “you gotta keep your head down”. If there isn’t significant realization of a change noted by the student after about 3 failures, it is paramount that the teacher change their approach. If you keep doing what you have always done, you will always get what you have always got.





While I agree that flexibility is a key component, I have been amazed over the many years of teaching when inflexible people learn to roll well, including C to C. A suggested approach for the aged is the one that should be used for all- rather than trying to teach one roll type (every camp has their bias, c-c, back deck, etc), the student should be introduced to the idea and movement patterns for all of them (front to side, front to back deck, back deck to side or forward), and the instructor should assess what the student has a natural inclination to, when deciding the next step.



karl

Nice post
With respect to “keep your head down”, it is indeed true that raising the head is a symptom, not a cause. It happens when the roll has already failed and at that point keeping the head down will not rescue the roll. I see that particularly with the C-to-C roll. The roller often does not bend up enough to create the first C fully enough, but most often stops short of fully creating the second C. Their body knows the roll is failing and they instinctively raise their head. If a person does a full first C moving into a full second C the roll is very reliable and not a lot of flexibility is required.



As to age and flexibility, my experience is that the correlation is there but is small. I have taught older people who were a lot more flexible than younger people, especially strong young men. I myself am 68 and don’t have any problem.