.
“I would suggest that you get into any low volume boat you can, even if it is not one on your possible wish list.”
I’ve already tried a few. So I already know what I don’t like!
The Vela I hate. The Tiderace was nothing special. The Avocet LV is definitely an improvement over the regular Avocet. But I must say it’s less than earth shattering, as many here would had me believe! (and that was the year when the Pilgrim was announced but not yet available at shops) That left the biggest “family” of low volume boat being the NDK line!
That’s why I’m looking into those 3, all in the same “family”. NDK boats have a slightly different hull design than Valley so I’m quite interested in trying them out to see if I like the handling characteristic.
I know it’s typical for an internet forum to make suggestion that’s not directly related to the question asked. Sometimes that’s helpful for people who hadn’t thought of it, to broaden their view. Except in my case, I’ve already gone through that “discover” process.
that was great, thank you
Thorough comparison.
Find out which size seat is in the demo
There are 2 sizes of the new glass seat.
Also, if the demo boat has had the black side inserts (hip area) removed from the seat recess made for them, ask if you can use some of the strap-secured Salamander hip pads, or something similar. The Pilgrim I used in San Diego had had this done to it, and I immediately noticed the looser fit compared with my unaltered seat. The shop had some removable hip pads that fit well in the right place, and that made it feel right. Because I was going to use it in surf, the shop owner also suggested that I glue in some extra minicell under the thigh brace area, which I did. That made the boat fit tighter than my PEX at home (which has some foam there but not as much). It worked great; however, I have not changed my own outfitting to match, as I am satisfied with it.
Cetus LV?
I spent a day in the Avocet LV. It is a quite reliable, steady on boat and has good features. Nothing about it rang any bells for me either, but some very good paddlers live happily with that boat.
The Vela is a love it or hate it boat - she is quirky. I've had that boat in nasty tide races and surf and keep waiting to find something she can't handle.... haven't found it yet. But I am aware that I am in the minority. The only other folks that have gotten into that boat and immediately liked it were a couple of friends with WW background and a guy locally who really wanted the height for pumping.
I don't know if you have gotten into one yet, but I know a number of people who have been very happy with the Cetus LV by P&H, including a primarily greenland paddler and a quite well-respected coach. At least one of them is within an inch of your height and 10 pounds of your weight. I spent a little bit of time in one myself, not enough to run it thru its paces but enough to find it had comfortable seating and was easy to maneuver. It is a boat I would consider and one that I think hits the mark better than the Capella 161, the other boat in the P&H line which was intended for small paddlers. The Cetus LV feels sweet.
I apologize if I missed something, but when you said that you had yet to find a boat that you could butt-slide in to any effect I took it to mean that you hadn't been in low volume boats. You are lighter than me, but I would have thought that you could get that effect even at your weight with a solid slide into the bilge on a couple of the boats you have tried. I am perhaps incorrect on that one.
I wear size 4 pants…
if that means anything. And that’s actually petite 4.
I’m tall enough for just about everything normal size. So deck height isn’t a big deal for me. It’s mostly volume, but also a lot of width I don’t need. If it were up to me (no, I’m NOT building a boat), I’d prefer a 19-20" width boat and will be much happier.
The new crop of LV boats goes a long way in the right direction. It’ll be right-sized for volume. Still, all of them are way too wide for me.
I can make most of the 16" long boats work. And I think I’ll enjoy the newer LV boats. But I suspect I will not be blown away by any of them. Because most of them are still made for people a lot wider and heavier than me. At the end of the day, a boat that can ride over ocean swells and carry camping gear for a long weekend just have to have certain volume. It’s a compromise I’m ready to accept. Just trying to get as close to optimal as I can. Rather than trying to find that illusive perfect boat.
Width, maybe Tahe?
Cetus LV comes in at 21.1 inches wide, may be the narrowest of the crop. I forget how the Cetus hull is shaped, but if it cuts in the waterline width may less than that. I know the Vela gives up 2 inches to the waterline. Tide Race boats are a box, so there isn’t much if any reduction of width to the waterline, similar to the older NDK boats.
FYI, Aled Williams who designed the TideRace boats is the same person who was the primary designer of the Romany and Explorer. There is a reason that someone who knows the Explorer/Romany boats will find the TideRace boats have a familiar feeling. Williams is a strong believer in building in head room in a boat, and both of these lines carry thru that ethic. The Pilgrim boats are from different designer(s).
It really sounds like you should take a look at the Tahe boats. They are designed from a greenland ethic and well may have dimensions that would be closer to what you want. I can refer you to someone of small stature on this board who has one. I just tried to get to their site and my virus blocker saw something it did not like.
headroom
I’m not sure I want a boat that has minimal head room either. It’s a wet ride for one thing, especially once loaded down. The lack of free board when fully loaded can be a problem.
Imagine someone 100lb carrying 50 lb of gear. That’s a 50% change in volume. While a 200lb guy don’t ever carry 100lb gear just for a weekend trip. So, if I were to have two boats, I would easily go to a Vela or some skin-on-frame for a day boat and have the Avocet LV for camping. But I’m not getting 2 boats. So the Pilgrim/A-LV is about as low as I will go and still camp out of it comfortably.
What I mean by headroom
It’s not really volume per se, though obviously one way to increase initial stability is to load more volume than the paddler needs into a design. That’s a crappy way to do it though, because it makes rolling and deep bracing harder due to the volume being moved. And the likely scenario for a capsize is that you are already tired.
The only reason you don’t hear this as an issue with Romany and Explorer LV’s is that these boats roll almost as easily as a lot of Greenland boats. So the added volume is countered by a stupendously fault-tolerant design for rolling.
What I mean is smaller tweaks that aid stability throughout the curve, like where the width of the boat peaks relative to the cockpit, how easy it is to move the boat thru its max point of stability on the way back up (for ex this is a hard point to get by in the CD Solstice designed boats) and how deeply a boat can be kicked onto its edge and still be recoverable with a moderate brace. This stuff goes more to hull shape than sheer volume.
I agree, in the TideRace boats it feels like much of it is being executed through volume. But a careful examination of the hull, right thru to how width is maintained towards the bow and the stern, will reveal that it is really the package. Compare boats designed in this ethic to a Valley Norkapp LV, and you will see a huge diff as the hull goes to the bow and the stern. The Nordlow skinnies out and pretty much leaves the paddler on their own if they start to go towards a capsize - nothing about the boat is going to get in the way.
pack light
I am in the same boat (no pun intended) and shopping for a lower-volume boat (have been for a few years). Part of what made me want to is that I first backcountry camped as a backpacker, often in hot weather, and so I taught myself to pack as light as possible. It was then that I started asking myself why I have this giant boat when I have to overpack (for me) to get the most out of it.
Whatever you get, please weigh in afterward, it’d be nice to see your input on whatever you decide upon.
some thoughts
Just keep in mind that typically it takes at least 75# to sink a smallish kayak one inch. If you are only going out for long weekends, then you do not need displacement capacity beyond that needed for a day boat. As you said earlier, you can easily camp for a weekend out of an Avocet LV.
My wife as camped for a long weekend using a Tahe Greenland and that is a far lower volume boat than any NDK and Valley boat being discussed. I suggest trying the Avocet LV again and hopefully in some wind and waves before deciding on one of the newer NDK boats. All good, just preferences. However the old Romany LV would be too big as would the Cetus LV, Force 3, or even the Capella 161. All wonderful boats, but really suited for folks bigger than you and the first two really for long distance touring. I know small paddlers who use them and they fit well, but get in heavy weather and they become more foe than friend not because they don’t handle the water, but its the effect of the wind that is more often the problem,
volume!
“However the old Romany LV would be too big as would the Cetus LV, Force 3, or even the Capella 161. All wonderful boats, but really suited for folks bigger than you and the first two really for long distance touring. I know small paddlers who use them and they fit well, but get in heavy weather and they become more foe than friend not because they don’t handle the water, but its the effect of the wind that is more often the problem”
That’s exactly my thought. The one area I struggle is in head wind condition when I’m fighting it a lot harder than others.
As for camping, I think I won’t go below the Avocet LV size boats. One of the reason I’m kayak camping instead of backpacking is the comfort. Actually, it’s no the weight of the gears, it’s the volume in this case. While I don’t want to paddle a lot of empty volume, I do want some carrying volume!
Just a thought,
based on some of your post,(Im a 5’10", 150# guy so take it for what it’s worth), I liked the Pilgrim but actually liked the WS Tempest 165 better. You being lighter and looking for a narrower boat might like Sterling’s Ice Kap,(17’, 19.5", custom deck hight, fast, good tracking and IMO way more responsive than most if not all the boats mentioned in this thread). I’ve paddled it and am considering one for myself.