I absolutely agree
on your wish for more narrow boats.
One related observation. There’s quite a difference between the absolute beam of a boat and space available to the paddler.
I find my brother’s Silhouette(52 cm) with ocean cockpit a tighter fit than the Qaanaaq(48 cm). It’s certainly harder to enter the Silhouette.
I find my Inuk(50cm) with standard seat tighter than my FW 2000(44 cm) with racing seat.
The way most manufactors hang the seat from cockpit coaming seems to waste a lot of internal space. They should rather put the seat in the bottom of the boat and decrease the beam if they want a tight fit.
/Peter
Outer Island
I got the bug.
I am seriously considering the Outer Island as my next boat. I had a chance to demo for almost 2 days (about 6 hours all told) and absolutely loved it. I even came back the second day with the GP just to see how it worked together.
I am big though, 6 ft and 200 and while I fit, I would have to take out the seat and replace with foam and go forward about an inch or so.
I know it doesn’t manouver that well but I got it to turn pretty quickly.
Looks like a great combination to start. tempest 170 for an all around boat and the Outer Island for Greenland training.
would welcome suggestions or comments.
paul
Rumour/Silhouette stability
Yes, the Rumour is much less stable than the Silhouette, but primary and secondary.
If you wanna go straight or roll
it would be fun, turning not so much fun, surfing, rough water play find something more maneuverable.
2 cents wikle
Used OIs
Paddled one a couple of times and didn’t much care for it, but I’m a fan of shorter more playful boats. There seems to be a lot of them available in the used marketplace - seems kind of funny for a fairly new production boat. I would expect you could find a good deal on a previously owned model.
~wetzool
Dubside as well!
He also has a very strong straitjacket roll and has actually hit it in competition. Thanks for the info on the Rumour’s rollability. I’m even more excited to try it out. Although I’m still struggling with the straitjacket roll in my rolling qajaq (so close!), it would be nice if I could eventually learn how to do it in the rolling qajaq as well as whatever day touring qajaq I buy. I know I set high goals but it will keep me motivated during the long frozen winter months in the pool. Let’s get a Rumour over to Cheri and Dubside and see what they can do in it! 
Used
Interesting. Like most anyone who sees one of these in the showroom I agree they would sell on looks alone, perhaps to a fault. But they don’t fit everyone and there’s some troubling accounts in the reviews that in the interest of avoiding weathercocking they may have gone too far the other way, the boat may blow downwind, even without the skeg (which makes it sort of useless because of that). That’s pretty much gotten me over thinking about getting one, myself.
For rolling enthusiasts they are no doubt a great choice.
Mike
I didn’t know that–or maybe
he couldn’t do it back when I met him and rolled with him. I do recall him doing an amazing cross armed norsaq roll in a very high-decked non-rolling type kayak.
I’ve been so carried away with skateboarding in the past year that I’ve let my rolling practice slip a bit. I was very happy to be hitting forward hand rolls on both sides this week, after several months of avoiding them for fear of having lost the knack!
I honestly believe it would be humanly impossible to do a straitjacket roll in a regular boat–it seems to require sliding onto the deck from the water, so if the deck’s too far off the water there’s no hope. I saw Harvey Golden do an elbow roll in ultra slow motion one time, creeping onto the back deck from the water, basically balance-braced with his body only, until he was far enough on to sit up and receive a round of applause.
Sanjay
Was it the Feathercraft Kahuna?
That big barge of a kayak is Dubsides rolling boat of choice which is really quite a different take on rolling compared to the ultra low volume and narrow kayaks that people typically use. I’m still working to find my forward finishing hand roll. I’ve got it with the norsaq but I need to improve my hip snap as well as my flexibility to allow me to perform it with only my hand. I sometimes can pull off the ultra slow motion elbow roll (elbow roll to balance brace to finish) but typically I have a “bad” habit of rushing it and powering it up.
A straitjacket roll (and the elbow roll) probably is out of the realm of most commercial kayaks but that doesn’t stop me from trying it in every boat I get in! So far, in regards to production boats, I know that it can be done in an Outer Island and the Kahuna (heavily modified) but that’s about it. I’ve hit a semi straitjacket roll (elbows slightly sticking out) in my whitewater playboat which tells me it probably is possible in that boat as well. I assume it would be possible in a squirt boat as well!
Yes, it was his Kahuna,
thanks for reminding me.
The advice Cheri gave me for the forward hand roll (starting tucked forward, finishing tucked forward) was to reach well out lateral of the boat with the hand. This made my rolls more smooth and reliable.
Sanjay
Whats this rolling crap…
If you can legitimately roll you can roll any sea kayak with ease. Rolling is a BASIC skill. Why would anyone buy a boat based on rollability, when they are all very “rollable” !
Pretty Much Agree…
If I were to buy a boat, the characteristics I would look for wouldn’t center around “rollability.” Heck, I wouldn’t ride a waveski if I were looking just for “rollability.”
At the same time, what I look for in a sea kayak, e.g. low volume, a balance of tracking and maneuverability (not extreme either end), minimal weatherhelming, good secondary stability, would usually end with a boat that is fairly easy to do layback rolls in.
Heck, some boats are not conducive to layback rolls (a greenland standard) but that’s not to say that they can’t be rolled. I have jumped into other folks’ huge white water (square like hull shapes) and pop of rolls. It’s just that they are more C2C than laybacks.
If you want a boat to roll for a greenland comp, that’s another story. Build one or have someone build for you. I admit to finding the notion of buying a production “rolling boat” kind of weird. But then again, I have the ability to make a custom SOF for this. I would have to anyways since production companies (except the Japanese) have so far avoided making low volume boats for the small paddler crowd.
sing
agree but…
sorta disagree as well. Yes once you can roll a boat, you can pretty much roll all of them. However, you have to take in to account the various reasons people paddle. For me, one of the biggest reasons I kayak is because I enjoy rolling and developing my rolling skills. From that sense, it would be nice if my every day touring boat could allow me to work on more advanced rolls (elbow and straitjacket) on a regular basis. I also have a SOF rolling qajaq which is probably one of the easiest rolling qajaqs around and it definetly was designed for a singular purpose. I have no plans of going to Greenland ever but why judge people because they don’t conform to your concept of why people should kayak? (For the record, if you have a poor roll and you buy a boat that’s easy to roll to overcome flaws in technique… then I agree with you completely spray.)
I think your comment originates from
the same place as mine, maybe. I understand the rolling focus, as I focus energy on it too, but not to the detriment of other attributes, carving turns, speed, etc.
I still have the desire to build a SOF too, but even then it will be more of a pure day touring boat than pure rolling machine.
Yeah, that’s what I meant
by the use of the word “enthusiast” in that sentence.
Mike
Spray, it’s about learning unusual
Greenlandic rolls that are much harder than standard rolls, but are easier in a dedicated rolling boat. Such boats are made and used in Greenland, still, and are used in the annual rolling competition there. Given that standard Greenland boats are already so much narrower and lower than commercial sea kayaks, finding a good hard-shelled rolling boat can be a real challenge. That’s why I wanted the Rumour to come back.
We’re talking about hand rolls, fist rolls, brick rolls (rolling with no paddle and a brick in your hand), behind the head rolls (paddle behind the head), behind the back rolls, cross-armed rolls, the spine roll (paddle held vertically behind the back), etc. etc. The hardest are the elbow and straitjacket rolls, which generally require a very low-volume kayak, and which only a few people in the whole country can do.
Having a special rolling boat seems no different to me from having a racing boat or a whitewater boat–it’s about having the best tool for the task at hand. And an absorbing task it is–I’ve spent hundreds of hours perfecting rolls.
Sanjay
Well, Agree With That Too…
– Last Updated: Oct-24-05 11:43 AM EST –
If one of the goals is to learn all, or most of the Greenland rolls, sure go ahead and facilitate with a very low volume hull as the primary consideration.
What I often read though are folks who seem to be looking for a touring boat for paddling somewhere. One of the first two questions are often, "Is this boat easy to roll? Easy to scull." I think once you have the basic rolling technique down, any boat can be rolled (albeit not elbow or straight jacket roll). The issue is whether the fit and the performance in conditions (anticipated) is where one wants it. Heck, you can have a boat that rolls like heck. But if it leecocks tremendously and you got a 30 knot plus offshore wind, it is see you later as your roll your way out to sea. :)
For example, someone has a thread about an OI and the focus seems to be more on rolling. The OI seems to have some helming issues from various reports. If I a big guy and were going to just roll with it, okay, maybe it's the route to go. But, If I were of a bigger size, why not just buy a second hand production boat that is relatively low volume for a big guy, cut away the seat, and go at it for rolling. Heck, a Sparrow Hawk, Anas Acuta, Chatham 16, etc. would all do that.
sing
sing
it’s obsessive skill development
inherintly Obsessive Compulsive behaviour.
nah… well maybe…
I would say that it doesn’t qualify as obsessive compulsive as long as it is still fun. If I can’t help myself and I’m forcing myself out on the water day after day to master a particular technique… then maybe it is obsessive compulsive. On the other hand, if I get up in the morning and I absolutely can’t wait to get on the water and learn something new which will actually allow me to enjoying kayaking even more… then it’s just fun practice. Yes I have spent many hours simply rolling as well as many hours on flatwater practicing playboating and many hours at a park and play spot learning how to spin, squirt, stall, and wheel. Sure I could have spent these hundreds of hours focusing on my forward stroke efficiency or training my muscles to paddle 30 miles a day, but isn’t that equally as obsessive?
Personally I love the “aha!” moment that comes from skill development. When I master a new roll or a new playboating skill, I instantly know that I am a slightly better kayaker than I was a minute ago. Your body is more attuned to the boat and your mind has a new understanding of things. By fragmenting the mountain of knowledge/skill that there is to learn in kayaking into tiny steps, the end goal (whatever it may be for the individual) seems more attainable. Although it isn’t quite the rush I get from running challenging whitewater, but the sense of accomplishment is very real and very powerful.
I love the “aha!” moment
I think most do.
While anything can be rolled. Each different design kayak rolls differently.
Of the few boats I’ve rolled, the OI is the one that requires the least effort - to me it feels as if one is rolling without even having a boat.
My Romany is much more forgiving to roll than my Aquanaut. Once I start it up it seems no matter how weak my hip flick, the boat comes up. The Romany seems to want to come up no matter what. Once it is upright it just sits on its bottom.
My Aquanaut rolls fast. With good hip flick, one has to be careful to not window shade. However, it will not roll if ones hip flick is weak or the paddle dives etc…
Just as one discusses the tracking, manueverability, etc… of a boat, it is perfectly valid to discuss its characteristics when rolling. Just as some prefer the Explorer’s loose bow and flatish hull for conditions while others prefer the Aquanaut’s tigher bow and more pronounced keel, it is appropriate to take into account the boat’s rolling ‘personality.’