Loon turns faster with heel.
I don’t have answers to your specific questions. Depending on trim, the stern will skid right around. It can feel very sporty for a 17’ solo canoe.
You don’t need a rudder to turn a Loon.
– Last Updated: Aug-09-10 11:40 PM EST –
It turns quite nicely with a bit of a heel. With it trimmed right, that stern will skid right around with just a little heel. I paddle mostly unloaded with no more than 175 pounds total in the boat. It lean turns much better with the rudder up, than with it down.
Mine (without the rudder down) is more "fun" than my Wenonah Advantage, Sawyer Summersong or even my Curtis Vagabond when exploring twisty shorelines. But, it certainly isn't a Flashfire.
It's the weight that keeps me from paddling it more.
Some need the Rudder Some Don’t
I hate sitting so I’ve only spent significant time in two kayaks.
My first was a Current Designs Solstice, a sweet, steady, suprisingly fast hull that didn’t care how much you heeled it. Sure, you could turn it with the paddle… until the wind kicked up. Then it was bear to handle without the rudder. It loved to broach and wallow in the troughs between waves very much like the Sea-1 and J-200 I paddled later. The rudder made that boat easy to control.
My second was a Current Designs Caribou with skeg, that boat would carve like a knife on an outside heel. The skeg took care of any hint of broaching in following seas. God I loved that boat!
From what I read I think that the Kruger hulls are more like the Solstice than the Caribou.
Yes?
I disagree
I would rather carry my #60 Sea Wind than my #50 kayak any day. The Kruger carry yoke is the best I have ever seen.
They manuever without a rudder too. Like many kayaks though, they are a lot better with a rudder. Unfortunately I never get a chance to explain that to the “serious sea kayakers”. They are usually so far behind I never see them.
Interesting, because…
– Last Updated: Aug-10-10 9:24 AM EST –
Let's compare the Sea Wind's numbers with a Sea Kayak, say QCC's 700X. I selected a QCC Hull of similar waterline length because we know QCC's designer, John Winters, made no mistakes. Legend has it Kruger didn't either.
First we need to agree to compare waterline lengths, not overall lengths. Some 17 foot sea kayaks only have 14.5 ft of hull in the water.
Sea Winds waterline length is ~16.9 ft after compensating for the stems, wl width 25"
It's two wave wash speed computes to 6.33 mph, it's Length/Width ratio is 8.1
Q700's waterline length is 17.55ft, wl width is 20.5"
It's two wave wash speed is 6.49 mph, L/W ratio 10.3
We know the Q700 is faster. If we found a sea kayak of matching waterline length it would have the same forward speed, except we know, by comparing L/W ratios the Q700 or other kayak is more efficient. We also know the Sea Wind is designed for a single blade while Q700 will be driven with a double blade which increases cadence and speed.
We could do a prismatic coefficient comparison for an even better handle on speed performance. QCC has the P.C. computed for the Q700, but it's more trouble than it's worth to work that up for Sea Wind. We also know the Sea Kayak has a higher Froude or Speed/Length ratio due to the significant differential in waterline widths.
The only way Sea Wind will walk away from well designed Sea Kayaks of the same waterline length is via benefit of a huge differential in stud factor, or, more likely, an over productive imagination; emphasis on the latter.
One cannot give up 4in in width and an extra paddleblade and come out ahead often.
Loon vs. Arluk III
– Last Updated: Aug-10-10 10:05 AM EST –
When I lost my tandem partners is when I looked for a solo boat years ago. At that time Sawyer was in bankruptcy and the local rep wanted to dump his trailer load of Sawyers including a Loon since he could no longer rep them. He took an OT restored wood canvas in trade from me for his Kevlar Loon and thus I now had my first solo boat.
My first big trip with it was a multi day trip on Mooshead Lake Me. My partner was using a Necky Arluk III. When we went head to head on the lake, he would slowly pull away. Granted I was carrying the heavier load because I could with the Loon, it still appeared to me that across the board it was going to get beat for top end speed by most 18 ft sea kayaks. Not by a lot, but still would be a tad slower. I often paddled it with a two bladed kayak paddle, but never quite determined if that made it faster, but it appeared to.
I did have it once quite a ways off shore of Peggy's Cove Nova Scotia when I shouldn't have because I was not properly dressed for cold water, was a neophyte to open ocean paddling and alone. I was in large swells, wind and some white caps and had no business being there because a cranium full of ignorance had put me there. That was one of those days in which a boats good design simply covered my ass full of mistakes.
That particular Loon had a rudder and in big waters of that day trying to do a 180 to head back in, I appreciated that it did have a rudder. Maybe with more experience it might not have felt like a crutch needed, but that day it did.
Good choice of boats
since I own both of those. I will agree that the QCC is faster, but it is not by much. I actually compared them myself. Speed as confirmed by my GPS was 7.8 mph sprinting speed with the QCC, 7.2 sprinting with the Sea Wind. Both have rudders. I paddled both of them with a canoe paddle. In the long run though, after full days of paddling, the Sea Wind is comfortable enough I can keep going. The QCC I have to stop every time I need something.
By the way…cadence is not faster with a kayak paddle. I paddle at 60 spm with either paddle when I am cruising. Just because there is another blade swinging around in the air above you doesn’t mean it is getting into the water any faster. I also checked my sprint speed with a kayak paddle in both boats, and the difference was negligable. 60 strokes per minute is the same weather you use a board or a wing paddle.
Of Course Cadences Vary
– Last Updated: Aug-10-10 8:37 PM EST –
Double blade paddlers can easily achieve a higher cadence than single stick users. The double blade forward stroke on any given side includes ~ 80% of the recovery on the opposite side.
Can't find my USCA racing manual, [still boxed], but I did find the Barton Mold. Marathon canoe racers, single stick, want to run 60-70 strokes a minute through the bulk of the race, but will elevate that cadence to the 80-90 strokes a minute at the start and when things get tight.
Barton claims 80 strokes a minute during the bulk of a 10K race but notes most competitors prefer higher rates. In a 1000 m sprint, Greg ran 100 spm while noting most top competitors preferred ~110 spm. At starts, all top level kayak competitors are at 140-150 strokes per minute, clearly rates that cannot be matched with a single blade.
Nothing wrong w/ 60 spm, that's race rate for a single stick, maybe 2/3 race rate for a double blade. But the double blade can and is often turned over 50% faster than a single stick, and it makes the boat go faster.
Terry Kent notes that while the double blade will drive any given boat faster than a single blade, it offers the paddler no relieve, hence "grinds you down over time than a single blade, which allows rest on the recovery."
This is why when the Landick and Kruger alternated dbl and single blades to compare, they found the double blade guy always ran away in the morning, but the single blade user caught and passed him in mid afternoon!
Rudders…
Okay to set the record straight on rudders…I am primarily a sea kayaker so can definitely address this issue.
Rudders on sea kayaks are not meant for turning…at all. They are meant for tracking, particularly in the wind. Period.
Turning into the wind in a kayak is easily achieved by a strong paddler with a bow rudder or cross bow rudder in winds up to about 35 knots if you are a really strong paddler.
As a purist when it comes to sea kayaks I don’t really believe in rudders for most paddling.
Most kayaks, if they don’t have a rudder, will have a skeg. This accomplishes the same thing: tracking in windy conditions and balances out the kayak’s tendency to want to turn into the wind (actually is the stern being blown downwind).
I just wanted a rudder on a canoe to assist in high winds and so that I could sit and swich…without having to switch unless I wanted to which seems kind of cool.
Furthermore, having the ability to sit and switch without yawing at all would keep your course straighter and allow you to have a higer “speed made good”
But I will mess around with the boat without the rudder. I think I will probably stick without one most likely.
I just moved and now am settled in so I can get the Loon out and experiment.
From the one time I paddled the Loon I did find it fun…it is not a Wildfire and not intended to do the things a Wildfire can do. I think comparing it to a Magic is a much more fair comparison.
Matt
exactly
Cewilson, I was glad to see your post about how the double bladers would take off in the morning but the single guys would catch up in the afternoon…
I’m not arguing with you at all, I can go faster with a double blade…but waving around all that extra weight, waving around the blade in the wind, I think that is what they are referring to as what “wears you down”.
I find the Kruger design not necessarily the fastest, you have explained why it is not and have agreement with that in this thread. The Kruger is efficient though. Having that rudder to eliminate the need for switching, or for corrective strokes, to me seems more efficient. Take that efficiency and add in a huge comfort difference between it and a sea kayak, and you see why guys like the Captain who own a QCC race a Kruger over 340 miles instead.
I just a beginner in my Monarch… I have one thing to add here though. Every paddle stroke is a power stroke when I single blade with a rudder. If I double blade, some strokes are “skipped” or “weak” in order to turn if I DON’T use the rudder to turn. that seems to be inefficient to me. I have yet to reach the level of “intermediate paddler” so I don’t know what I am talking about… got any zip locks for flotation and left-tovers?
Joe
when you put rudders on your Loon
– Last Updated: Aug-12-10 7:33 PM EST –
...please take some pics bowler1, will you.
A whole New approach to paddling a canoe...rotfl.
I'm just envious Matt...spend some time with it!
double vs single
Regarding the adage that if two paddlers start in the morning one doubling and one singling and the singler will always catch the doubler in the afternoon…
The solution seems simple…double in the morning then switch to a single in the afternoon!
Seriously I pack both sticks with me I guess you could say I am a 1.5 blade paddler. Am I the only one who switches tween the two on a long day paddle of lets say 40 to 80 miles?
I used to do just that
use a double in the AM, single in the afternoon.
Finally I just decided I would stick with just one and use the single exclusively.
actually
If I had to pick it would be the single. I do enjoy running the double though. I spent most of this summer exclusively singling but then recently I ran into a deal on a small mid and its been fun to play with. I like the small blades alot more than a big bladed wing I was used to.
More on the Loon…
I have had the Loon out several times now and have learned a lot.
First is that I found that the boat really likes a load without a rudder. With the the way to the rear and with my 200 pounds in it, the boat still is hard to bring out of a yaw; however, with a light pack behind the seat it changes things significantly and the boat tracks much better. The boat is obviously designed to be paddled with a load.
The other thing I found which is pretty cool is that the boat is pretty fast. I have been paddling it with my GPS and paddled the same course today in a Wenonah Advantage (which is regarded as a fast boat) and the Loon was faster. That is saying a lot in my opinion.
Matt
Don’t know where they
moved you, but CLC sells the SmartTrack rudder (full set or parts as you need) at reasonable prices. If this is similar to a kayak, which it seems to be, the small blade will probably suffice but there is always the option of the larger one (intended for tandems).
Single or double?
Were you using a single or double blade in the Loon? I’m assuming single in the Advantage.
Alan
Single blade in both
I was using a single blade in both the Advantage and Loon. No offense to those who use a double blade, but as an avid kayaker I really feel strongly that if I want to use a double blade I will paddle my kayak. I only use a single blade in a canoe.
I know that a using both offers some advantages but I will always use a single in a canoe. Paddling a decked canoe blurs the lines between canoe and kayak enough already…lol.
Matt
Matt I want dibs on the Magic
Well…this post was about 7 years ago. The Magic is long gone…as is the Loon…and the Advantage. All are great boats though. Currently paddling a Hemlock SRT which is also an awesome boat but fills a little different niche. Eventually I want to get another Magic. For lakes, open water, wind and waves, and tripping on flat water rivers the Magic is hard to beat.